[Race] US Grand Prix

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

But to your point... nowhere have I seen allowances made to allow cutting corners.
Richard

You've forgotten Hamilton Mexico 2016!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-3...ash-up/7980170

[Articus]

Admit I didn't catch the race until halfway through. Just seen the start highlights. Vettel managed to lead into the first corner? Wow. But he made it far too easy on lap 6 for Hamilton to get past considering the championship on the line.

[Kempi]

What would it have helped if he had made it harder. He knew Hamilton was much faster, there were quite a few laps until pitstops and his tires would not last. No way he would have kept HAM behind for 10+ laps. So better let him go and make the tires last as long as possible.

I read somewhere here that Max made the pass of the day. He might have, but not in the last lap. That was simply a cut corner. It was as bad a pass as „the pass“ at Laguna Seca by Zanardi: passing someone by cutting the track. This year in IMSA someone passed for the lead at the Corkscrew as well without cutting. That was a spectacular pass. Cutting the corner is not.

[AndrewCherry]

"As long as there is normal circuit, you can use it. A white line is not a limit. We agreed this all, last year it was all agreed. And now we get this decision. I think it’s completely wrong.”

From Niki Lauda here on motorsport.com.

I don't understand what planet he's on - or F1 if everyone genuinely agreed to that. What the hell are white lines for if they're not track limits? If they're not track limits and everyone knew that, why did they stay inside them generally otherwise? That's clearly a quicker line, why didn't Max cut that corner every lap? What utter bullsh*t.

[VIVA GT]

As the live race was shown during important family time yesterday evening, I took the tactful approach, recorded it, and got up at 5AM this morning to watch it before coming to work. After watching the race I was impressed with young Max, and thought his overtaking move was excellent, and so was bemused by the penalty. Having read the reasoned discussion on here (and for once I'm saying that and not being sarcastic!), I see the point of the penalty and agree with it being placed.
It still doesn't stop me however with being impressed by Max's driving, and to be fair, we all got what we want, spectacular driving, excitement but the correct race result due to 'fairness'. (The stewards could I suppose have given him a much bigger time penalty and knocked him further down the order, and that would not have been fair).

[Taxi645]

Just a few points:

I'm all for racing on track instead of next to it. You can try to accomplish that by either enforcing the existing rules (and doing so consistently) or built the track such that automatically punishes those that go beyond the track limits. As I've argumented before I strongly prefer the latter.

In this case the track (which I find otherwise one of the best on the calender), neither is built to punish drivers going off track nor was going off track being punished all weekend. So yes I think it is inconsistent, if you don't want people to go off track there, built the curbs such that they won't or at least police the going off track rules from the start (and not just the part of the rule that makes you a back-room hero).

If you look at the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuPLPha1k7c

At 1:18 Raikkonen was (understandably) still on a trajectory to hit the apex and just at that second sees Max and makes room, Max at that second has to go over the kerb to make sure to avoid a nasty contact. If he had known before hand that Kimi would steered away he could've taken the extra 0.5m and still would've easily made the move stick. So making the move stick wasn't dependant on going over the kerb, but considering Raikkonen's trajectory till 1:18, doing it with some sensible margin of safety was.

I would've been okay with the penalty if going off track would've been enforced from the start of the weekend, but they didn't. We've seen drivers, even in the race, drive two meters off track for 3 seconds. Yes it was during an overtake, but if you're serious about rules are rules than all going off track should be penalized and not just the ones you feel like.


In the end the FIA should just enforce tracks being built that automatically punish going of track without the need for penalties. Tarmac run-offs are good for safety, just built a 1-2m wide strip of grass or astroturf on the outside of the curb, built inside kerbs high enough so the car get's unsettled enough to not want to use too much of them without braking suspension (Austria) and you're good to go.


One other thing I will say. Saying that the stewards didn't give a penalty so it was okay and then criticising or being abusive when you do get a penalty is also not very consistent. It's either one or the other.

[Kempi]

If you look at the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuPLPha1k7c

At 1:18 Raikkonen was (understandably) still on a trajectory to hit the apex and just at that second sees Max and makes room, Max at that second has to go over the kerb to make sure to avoid a nasty contact. If he had known before hand that Kimi would steered away he could've taken the extra 0.5m and still would've easily made the move stick. So making the move stick wasn't dependant on going over the kerb, but considering Raikkonen's trajectory till 1:18, doing it with some sensible margin of safety was.

You are making a good point here: Max stuck his nose somewhere again relying on the other driver to jump out of the way to avoid contact. This time he himself tried to avoid it by going off track. Meaning he could not have made the move stick without either Kimi making room because of self-preservation or without going off track (or in this case both).

So the penalty was absolutely correct, as was Hamilton in Hungary with "the kid's dangerous."

Don't get me wrong, I think this will change with Max once he is in contention for a title and others have made their early impressions the same way. But in this case, the penalty was simply correct.

And btw, when applying law, and rules are law, there is no equality requirement in a law infraction. Meaning: you cannot rely on previous decisions when breaking rules just because it has not been punished earlier.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Kempi

And btw, when applying law, and rules are law, there is no equality requirement in a law infraction. Meaning: you cannot rely on previous decisions when breaking rules just because it has not been punished earlier.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

This is all a consequence of making the circuits safer. If the old raised kerbs were there (or in place at new circuits) there would be no problem. But for reasons of safety we have replaced raised kerbs with white lines. It's the theory of unintended consequences, thus if there is tarmac to race on, a driver will naturally race on it.

The only thing wrong with the decision was the timing, because it must have confused the arse of the audience at the circuit.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Kempi

You are making a good point here: Max stuck his nose somewhere again relying on the other driver to jump out of the way to avoid contact. This time he himself tried to avoid it by going off track. Meaning he could not have made the move stick without either Kimi making room because of self-preservation or without going off track (or in this case both).

Yes Kempi, proper close racing relies on leaving each other room on track. Verstappen's move was risky and in normal circumstances I would be disappointed by the penalty but I would've found it an acceptable decision. With the rule enforcing this weekend, in my view, it was not.

Originally Posted by Kempi

And btw, when applying law, and rules are law, there is no equality requirement in a law infraction. Meaning: you cannot rely on previous decisions when breaking rules just because it has not been punished earlier.

Yes, let's making racing about applying rule of law, that will improve matters tremendously! Of course the context of rule enforcing this whole weekend is not irrelevant here. That's exactly what is wrong, racing shouldn't be about penalties, built the tracks properly and you can avoid this whole mess (at least in regards to track limits).

Hamilton's quote: http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/124...-idiot-steward

Originally Posted by Hamilton

"It's a really fine line and very hard. I think the FIA do a good job but I think they can't build new tracks with these run-off areas."

And Hamilton added to Sky F1's Martin Brundle and Damon Hill: "I loved it in your guys' day when there was grass.

"You should pay some sort of price.where you go have to come off the gas and you take a bit of a bumpy ride, whether it's onto stones or whatever. You don't have that now."

[Graz]

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

So would I. It was clearly gaining an advantage by abusing track limits. I race karts. If I passed someone with all four wheels off, I'd get dinged. If someone else did it to me, so would they, or I'd be marching off to the steward to ask why.

People are asking "yes, but why should we have that rule", well... What? What would be the point in even having a track if we didn't? You'd either have to say "race within these walls" which, fair enough, would work but would be rather expensive on a regular basis (and less safe) or races would just become a straight line (and we already have drag racing - it's sh*t).

I don't see any other way you could conceivably set up a race other than have "stay on the track" be the basic rule. Running wide on an exit is not the same, and is judged differently (for safety, based on when the race it is, etc.) As far as I know, nobody else cut an apex and made a place up. If they had, I'd expect a penalty.

Incidentally, I would be dinged 4 places for such a move, not just 1. Otherwise, there's no incentive not to just give it a go on the last lap or two and hope the stewards miss it.

But, if I pressurise someone in front of me into a mistake, he runs off and back on with no consequence because there is no grass/gravel/wall there, that's not right surely? You've prevented the loss of a place (and in the good old days possible being out of the race).

The skill gap is reduced from any old idiot being able to run off and re-join. It removes that element of "can I get through that corner quicker" risk vs reward element that differentiates the good from the great.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Graz

But, if I pressurise someone in front of me into a mistake, he runs off and back on with no consequence because there is no grass/gravel/wall there, that's not right surely? You've prevented the loss of a place (and in the good old days possible being out of the race).

The skill gap is reduced from any old idiot being able to run off and re-join. It removes that element of "can I get through that corner quicker" risk vs reward element that differentiates the good from the great.

Looks to me like you are both in violent agreement.

[newlaprecord]

the otherwise mainly very diplomtic horner (let alone max) post race interviews are pretty disapointing, considering the majority seem to see leaving the track like this during an overtake ilegal. just the swiss site im coming of have the poll at 73% in favour of fia's deacision.

horner and max should understand that therre is a line bwtween having a different opinion and insultiing other's intelligence to make judgements.

[GTRMagic]

Should Mr Verstappen get a smack on the wrist for all the nice names he is calling Mr Connelly?

[Kempi]

We should fully quote Hamilton's statement in the sky sports article (bold print added by me):

"He's off-track," the championship leader told Sky F1. "This is the problem with today's circuits. I don't know who made the decision but there's all these run-off areas. Why is that not grass? If that was grass he wouldn't have gone there.

"I just don't know why there's these flaws on these circuits. Particularly the new generation of driver comes in and is very happy to exploit these things. Clearly he's way off the line. You can't go there.

"It is very difficult and when we're in drivers' briefings, we're always discussing and we say, 'here you can gain an advantage'.

"There's always an argument and Charlie [Whiting, FIA race director] says, 'I don't think you can gain an advantage there' and we say, 'yes, we can get on the power 10 metres earlier and just go wide'.

"It's a really fine line and very hard. I think the FIA do a good job but I think they can't build new tracks with these run-off areas."

And Hamilton added to Sky F1's Martin Brundle and Damon Hill: "I loved it in your guys' day when there was grass.

"You should pay some sort of price where you have to come off the gas and you take a bit of a bumpy ride, whether it's onto stones or whatever. You don't have that now."

[rpolinski]

The real disgrace from the end of the race - The fact that despite having fresh ultra-softs a few laps from the end in the race winning car, Bottas couldn't manage to get fastest lap. Even Alonso has managed it in the McLaren Honda.

[littleman]

Verstappen had all four wheels off the track and gained an advantage by doing so. Why would he,the team or anyone else be surprised he got a penalty?

If a footballer takes the ball out of play, even by 50mm, and then scores a cracking goal, everybody, including the player, know's the goal will be disallowed.

Footballers, NFL players, Rugby players etc can't say "well there was grass the other side of the white line so why can't I use it when I want to?".

Because the rules of the sport say you can't!

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Kempi

We should fully quote Hamilton's statement in the sky sports article (bold print added by me):

You should do what you want. I used the part that is relevant to the reason why I quoted, that tracks need to be designed different.

[Wims]

Pass on the grass and then whine when he gets penalized. Kindergarden

[littleman]

If Verstappen plays football, I assume if he runs the ball out of play for a goal kick,then he believes he should get a corner kick.

Likewise, if he plays tennis, then I guess every serve he makes is always in and the ball can bounce twice his side of the court.

I can't imagine his coach, manager or team owner would be stupid enough to agree with him. They'd say "Look, you're very talented but you have to play the sport within the rules, they're not going to be changed just to suit you".

By the way, did your father ever give you a good slap?......because he should have done.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Looks to me like you are both in violent agreement.

I'm not sure, Andrew was agreeing to a previous poster who said there is a difference between just running of track and running of track to gain a place. I'm happy to be wrong and apologies if I am - I usually am!!

[gert]

Originally Posted by rpolinski

The real disgrace from the end of the race - The fact that despite having fresh ultra-softs a few laps from the end in the race winning car, Bottas couldn't manage to get fastest lap

That's right, he failed to get it by a massive 0.001 seconds

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

You've forgotten Hamilton Mexico 2016!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4D9VNtzW4

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-3...ash-up/7980170

I started to watch that video and then noticed the title about a chaotic start and then stopped. That title is all I needed to know.

I should have included one extra exception that stewards tend to look the other way... at starts, and in particular the first corner. Again, I am a rules kind of guy and I hate that they allow all kinds of mischief at starts, but unfortunately they do.

Richard

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by littleman

If Verstappen plays football, I assume if he runs the ball out of play for a goal kick,then he believes he should get a corner kick.

Likewise, if he plays tennis, then I guess every serve he makes is always in and the ball can bounce twice his side of the court.

I can't imagine his coach, manager or team owner would be stupid enough to agree with him. They'd say "Look, you're very talented but you have to play the sport within the rules, they're not going to be changed just to suit you".

By the way, did your father ever give you a good slap?......because he should have done.

but is seems those rules only apply to Max

[Peter Mallett]

And so they should.........................................

[gert]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

but is seems those rules only apply to Max

I think the rules currently say you have to keep at least 1 tire on the track: i.e. you can't cross the white line with all 4 wheels.

None of the cars in your image are doing that while overtaking another car.

I may be mistaken on the Mercedes vs Red Bull, but I think that is Bottas being overtaken instead of him overtaking?