Drivers whine about safety car rules

[Paradise City]

I noticed in Autosport this week some of the slowcoaches, used the opportunity of the outrage, where drivers are expected to pass backmarkers after the safety car, to lobby for the return for the rule where backmarkers got their lap back, some of them saying the present situation is dangerous.

While I don't mind backmarkers forming a line alongside or behind the leaders I am firmly against awarding them a lap back. F1 should not award incompetence, slowness or even forgive bad luck. It's a sport not a charity. Part of the skill of a Grand Prix driver is to overcome backmarkers and while one race a backmarker may ruin a battle for the lead, another race might well see a backmarker as an important part of an excellent overtaking move. Think JV using Lavaggi to pass Schumacher in 1996.

I was wondering as well why exactly they dropped that rule last year? I hope that's the last we'll see of it in any event.

[Ralf's Girl]

I didn't think it was ever about rewarding backmarkers by giving them a lap back - my understanding was that it was meant to make the restart more exciting by allowing the front-runners to run close together without any lapped cars in their way.

I can see both sides of this one: on the one hand, if you're leading and you've lapped a few cars and the guy in 2nd hasn't, that's an advantage that you have gained and it hands an advantage to him to allow the lapped cars to pass the safety car so that he can close right up. But then on the other, it does make it more exciting for viewers to see the cars running on track in the 'correct' position ahead of the restart, because we all hope to see some overtaking.

I think the issue arose after Brazil because there was so much confusion about who was being lapped and who was racing for position, and some drivers claim that they weren't being shown blue flags so didn't know whether they were meant to let the car behind through or not. I do think we were a little bit deprived of an interesting race by some drivers losing time picking their way through the backmarkers.

There's also an issue of how long it takes to get the racing going if the 'lapped cars can overtake' rule is reintroduced - you can't just bring the safety car in once an accident has been cleared, because you have to get the track safe and then wait for all of the lapped cars to make their way through the field, past the safety car and onto the back of the train. I find that generally when the safety car is out we're all fairly impatient to see the racing get going again.

[jab]

I agree with the drivers - the situation in Brazil was silly and quite dangerous too, and it hinders both the backmarkers and the front-runners. But why do the backmarkers even have to have their lap back? Why not just shuffle them to the back of the queue? Would make more sense

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jab

I agree with the drivers - the situation in Brazil was silly and quite dangerous too, and it hinders both the backmarkers and the front-runners. But why do the backmarkers even have to have their lap back? Why not just shuffle them to the back of the queue? Would make more sense

If there are lapped cars between the first and second placed drivers, as we saw in Brazil, it's a lot safer to send them forwards (going past 1 F1 car and 1 safety car) than it is to send them backwards. The other thing is, it seemed to take an eternity to shuffle all the cars to the back of the queue, its more likely for less laps under the safety car with the current system.

[wnut]

IMO the backmarkers should stay exactly where they are, it takes time to overtake them, and the leader should preserve at least that advantage under the safety car.
The pit entrance should also be sealed as soon as the decision is made to deploy the safety car. It is after all a race and not a game of chance.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by jab

I agree with the drivers - the situation in Brazil was silly and quite dangerous too, and it hinders both the backmarkers and the front-runners. But why do the backmarkers even have to have their lap back? Why not just shuffle them to the back of the queue? Would make more sense

Any extra danger can be compensated by extra vigilance on behalf of our heroes as is the custom and fail that, they are insulated by a good safety cell to keep the darlings safe. In my view any extra danger that there was in Brazil was unremarkable and could be overcome.

I think they are mistaking danger for inconvenience. In the agricultural world of Indycar and NASCAR they manage quite successfully to identify the car in front and behind, what his status is, all of which is communicated to the driver whilst racing. I'm sure in space-age F1 the drivers can be brought up to date on this information without much trouble during the relaxing lull of the safety car so they can modify their approaches accordingly. I'm sure this happens already.

Originally Posted by Mr V

If there are lapped cars between the first and second placed drivers, as we saw in Brazil, it's a lot safer to send them forwards (going past 1 F1 car and 1 safety car) than it is to send them backwards. The other thing is, it seemed to take an eternity to shuffle all the cars to the back of the queue, its more likely for less laps under the safety car with the current system.

Drivers that are lapped know only too well that they are lapped.

So divide the pack into two columns: lapped cars and leaders. Once divided, allow the leader column to move forward whilst the lapped column falls in at the back.

This simple maneouvre can be executed at low speeds in the course of a few corners even while any wreckage is being cleared up. No need to wait around for the wreckage to be cleared and no need to wait again for the cars to power around the entire lap.

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I didn't think it was ever about rewarding backmarkers by giving them a lap back - my understanding was that it was meant to make the restart more exciting by allowing the front-runners to run close together without any lapped cars in their way.

I can see both sides of this one: on the one hand, if you're leading and you've lapped a few cars and the guy in 2nd hasn't, that's an advantage that you have gained and it hands an advantage to him to allow the lapped cars to pass the safety car so that he can close right up. But then on the other, it does make it more exciting for viewers to see the cars running on track in the 'correct' position ahead of the restart, because we all hope to see some overtaking.

I think the issue arose after Brazil because there was so much confusion about who was being lapped and who was racing for position, and some drivers claim that they weren't being shown blue flags so didn't know whether they were meant to let the car behind through or not. I do think we were a little bit deprived of an interesting race by some drivers losing time picking their way through the backmarkers.

There's also an issue of how long it takes to get the racing going if the 'lapped cars can overtake' rule is reintroduced - you can't just bring the safety car in once an accident has been cleared, because you have to get the track safe and then wait for all of the lapped cars to make their way through the field, past the safety car and onto the back of the train. I find that generally when the safety car is out we're all fairly impatient to see the racing get going again.

I think lapped cars should fall in at the back of the pack and stay lapped.

I think part of good sport is that if you make a mess of things you accept responsibility for that. If a lapped car and his team use some clever strategy to get himself back on the lead lap well that's fine but a driver that has gaffed shouldn't sit around like a lump and get handed back his lap as if nothing happened. I think that devalues the competition.He should use his own strengths to recover.

As an aside I think this raises aero questions as well. Lapped cars should be easier to pass than they are I think. These days even when backmarkers are obliging it seems the leaders turn into Frank Spencer tribute acts when they try to pass. I'm not an aero expert but that the cars look like scaffolding on wheels surely can't help?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by wnut

IMO the backmarkers should stay exactly where they are, it takes time to overtake them, and the leader should preserve at least that advantage under the safety car.
The pit entrance should also be sealed as soon as the decision is made to deploy the safety car. It is after all a race and not a game of chance.

I think wading through backmarkers is an important of Grand Prix racing and has been since the start and if a little slowcoach makes a mistake and gives the leader a little fright whilst lapping his leisurely colleague well iits all good for the suspense in my book.

[neilap]

Backmarkers ruined the potential climactic result in Brazil. Even giving them their lap back will not help them so I have no issue with it. They will still be at the rear and will still be lapped if the race goes on long enough

[Knowlesy]

The rule is fine as it is. Battling through traffic is a skill and those who have got through it quicker should not lose their hard earned advantage.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The rule is fine as it is. Battling through traffic is a skill and those who have got through it quicker should not lose their hard earned advantage.

I agree. I did think that (for example) the reason that Vettel and Webber had 2 backmarkers behind them is because Vettel already had to pass those cars, why should he (or anyother driver in that position) then lose their advantage?

[Armco Bender]

The backmarkers generally get lapped by the safety car.

[safc_fan89]

Considering that the current rules state that backmarkers have to let the front-runners through when being lapped, I don't understand how a comment can be made that passing backmarkers is "hard-earned" and a skill. That's not the way it works any more! Vettel and Webber got past all the cars before the safety car because the backmarkers had blue flags waved at them!

I was shocked that it was only Heidfeld penalised for ignoring blue flags. Poor Rosberg lost about 10 seconds trying to get past the rabble in front of him (which makes it surprising he's said he is fine with the current rules).

I'd return to the rule we had for the last couple of seasons. Sure, we might lose a couple of laps while the lapped cars return to the back, but at least we won't get a crazy situation like we had in Brazil.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

IMO the backmarkers should stay exactly where they are, it takes time to overtake them, and the leader should preserve at least that advantage under the safety car.
The pit entrance should also be sealed as soon as the decision is made to deploy the safety car. It is after all a race and not a game of chance.

I would agree with this.

If a driver has an advantage of 23 seconds and the safety car is deployed he loses that advantage as it is. Eliminating lapped traffic so those who were behind him on the road can attempt to jump him on the restart is to reward medicocrity even further and the safety argument is pure B/s.

Its just a whine from people who are attempting to get some unearned advantage over their fellow competitors.

We have blue flags for lapped traffic anyway so all the lapped cars would/should be getting a blue flag anyway which further assists the getting through traffic.
If the drivers can't cope with that its time they raced sports cars or did some endurance racing for a few seasons to learn how to deal with traffic.

[fourWheelDrift]

[Pingguest]

Apart from the Safety Car itself being something unfair and actually unsafe, I disagree with the drivers. Going through traffic is basic competence of a race driver. Aren't Formula 1-drivers supposed to be the top of the world?

[Chiefy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

So divide the pack into two columns: lapped cars and leaders. Once divided, allow the leader column to move forward whilst the lapped column falls in at the back.

This simple maneouvre can be executed at low speeds in the course of a few corners even while any wreckage is being cleared up. No need to wait around for the wreckage to be cleared and no need to wait again for the cars to power around the entire lap.



I think lapped cars should fall in at the back of the pack and stay lapped.

I quite like this idea, and I agree it is quite easy to orchestrate on the track. But consider this: Vettel has just lapped Kobayashi, 11th, who was 0.5s behind Petrov in 10th. The SC is deployed and, far from someone like Webber gaining the advantage of lapping Kobayashi under the SC to close up to Vettel, we have Kobayashi's 0.5s defecit turning into a '+1 lap' defecit.

Therefore giving back a lap to the lapped cars is probably my preference. You could argue that it devalues the race but blue flags do the same in many respects. Drivers should welcome this method because it gets the slow coaches out of their way.

The current system's only merit is that you're guaranteed some level of action as front-runners try frantically to overtake tail-enders on the restart.

[Knowlesy]

Safc, regardless of blue flags it is still a risky and time consuming exercise getting through backmarkers. Therefore any advantage earned should not simply be erased.

That said, the confusion in Interlagos did grate.

[jab]

Racing with burning cars for as far as possible would be a challenge too. Doesn't necessarily mean it should happen

[Knowlesy]

F1 fans - over-reacting about everything since forever.

[jab]

The thing is, it shouldn't have to be a skill to get through backmarkers if they all did what they were supposed to do - get out of the way. And it's not like they don't have to pick their way through backmarkers otherwise

I don't see how drivers would be any less of a complete package if they got lapped cars out of the way. And in any case, the show should be the priority - last Sunday's race was an anti-climax. If you want to take a totally purist view, then you'd be calling for no safety car full stop, but that would be just silly in this day and age - we've moved on from those days

It's not an over-reaction. I reckon it should go further and that they should go back to the old safety car rules of closing the pit lane until the field forms up - look how much of a difference that made to 2008. I know it's artificial, and for that reason I didn't like it at the time, but it gave us some great results

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by jab

If you want to take a totally purist view, then you'd be calling for no safety car full stop, but that would be just silly in this day and age - we've moved on from those days

Yes, I am. And no, it wouldn't. Why are we arguing about whether it is fair for there to be a couple of backmarkers between two competing drivers, when we don't challenge the fact that the safety car totally destroys a driver's hard-earned lead?

We can have a situation where one driver takes the tactical decision to go hard from the beginning regardless of the caning he gives his tyres. He builds a good lead that should protect him when his tyres degrade quicker than the driver following him. Then a safety car pops up and that gain is taken away from him. It's not fair; and if it's not fair, it's not sport.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Yes, I am. And no, it wouldn't. Why are we arguing about whether it is fair for there to be a couple of backmarkers between two competing drivers, when we don't challenge the fact that the safety car totally destroys a driver's hard-earned lead?

We can have a situation where one driver takes the tactical decision to go hard from the beginning regardless of the caning he gives his tyres. He builds a good lead that should protect him when his tyres degrade quicker than the driver following him. Then a safety car pops up and that gain is taken away from him. It's not fair; and if it's not fair, it's not sport.

So how do you suggest getting a safe gap for the marshals to recover a car thats in a dangerous position. trusting drivers to abide to yellow flags? .... i think not.

[cmk]

I am not sure why one would want things that don't require skill to be a part of the 'pinnacle of motorsport'. Managing traffic is a skill that the best race drivers should possess. I realize that in an era such as this one where technology and track design complicates passing it may be unreasonable to expect the leaders to work their way through traffic completely unaided by blue flags, but generally speaking this should be another area where the most talented driver can make gains. This rubbish where lapped cars are expected to fall all over themselves getting out of the way despite being in their own battles is not exciting for the fan, in my opinion. After watching drivers manage traffic in Le Mans-type racing it all seems a bit comical.

[Chatters]

The Safety Car - What a disgrace.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by mattt

So how do you suggest getting a safe gap for the marshals to recover a car thats in a dangerous position. trusting drivers to abide to yellow flags? .... i think not.

A slick, smooth red flag system. Stop on the grid. Restart the engines when given the all-clear. Re-start each car individually retaining the gaps that were between them on the last proper racing lap.

I'm sure the first objection from the nay-sayers will be that it takes 5 minutes, twenty people and two Cray super-computers to start a F1 engine. They said the same about overnight parc ferme, longlife engines and longlife gearboxes. Set the rules, give the teams a bit of time to sort it out, and they'll solve the problems.

There are a few issues to sort out on the logistics of stopping, arranging and re-starting the cars, but nothing that can't be sorted out with a bit of a will.

Think of the benefits:
Competitors don't get unfair benefits or penalties from a random event
Spectators get to watch a full-length race
Marshals have a totally clear track while they are clearing up an accident
Less risk of picking up a puncture from debris while trolling around
No more crashgates
The winner of the race is the driver who completed the distance in the shortest time