Drivers whine about safety car rules

[mattt]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

A slick, smooth red flag system. Stop on the grid. Restart the engines when given the all-clear. Re-start each car individually retaining the gaps that were between them on the last proper racing lap.
....
The winner of the race is the driver who completed the distance in the shortest time

But completely confuses the "non-motorhead" watchers, who make up a majority of viewers. i personally would think it would good fun but you would have to do it from the pitlane not the grid else you would end up with issues clearing everybody out of the way.

But even that way would cause major controversy maybe even more than the current system. imagine "teflonso" being released 0.5 seconds to late and then subsequently losing the race because of it.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by mattt

But completely confuses the "non-motorhead" watchers, who make up a majority of viewers. i personally would think it would good fun but you would have to do it from the pitlane not the grid else you would end up with issues clearing everybody out of the way.

But even that way would cause major controversy maybe even more than the current system. imagine "teflonso" being released 0.5 seconds to late and then subsequently losing the race because of it.

Everyone on the lead lap starts from the grid, lapped cars from the pits. Howver it would take a bit of organising and could descend into chaos if one or more cars stalled or broke the clutch or a drive shaft and didn't get away from the grid.

[mattt]

it takes about half of an opening lap to clear the grid in my experience

[awrb]

To be honest I wouldn't mind it if they got the lapped cars out the way. If the safety car is needed it is a random event that will affect a GP, but random events are part of sport. You could never outlaw all random events, so you have to embrace them.

We could say that if it starts to rain the race is stopped while all people change to wets, and then they are allowed off with the same gaps as before. Otherwise it's unfair if someone has already pitted or if they loose a good lead because they were caught out by the rain.

We need random events becasue otherwise all races would be pretty boring. It's a bit like tarmac runoff, I was frustrated by the amount of people who made mistakes at Abu Dhabi and didn't even lose any time because they just ran on the tarmac. If there was grass or gravel there'd have been a lot more drama in the race.

Just my thoughts on the issue really.

[Woolley]

How about the drivers just obey the yellow flags as per the regulations? We don't even need a safety car and all this becomes academic. No need for them to whine at all, just do their jobs properly. But as usual, it's everyone else's fault.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Woolley

How about the drivers just obey the yellow flags as per the regulations? We don't even need a safety car and all this becomes academic.

Slow down and be prepared to stop. We don't see much of that.

[Pingguest]

What about a full-course yellow: slow down and be prepared to stop for the entire lap. Overtaking nor intentional blocking is not allowed. If necessary the FIA could enforce an minimum lap time.

[Purist]

The primary issue for me is when the leader goes versus when everyone else can go. The backmarkers need to be sternly briefed on being aware come the re-start. Lead lap cars need to be allowed to pass backmarkers before the start/finish line once the leader is on the gas, otherwise the leader, at least at some tracks (like Brazil with its VERY long front stretch), can get an insurmountable lead before anyone else is allowed to pass.

[bravo]

If Teflonso was leading, and Massa was 2nd on the road but a lap down, what is to stop him being caught 'dozing' when Teflonso floors it? He could have 1/3 lap lead before Massa gets to the 1st Safety Car line.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by bravo

If Teflonso was leading, and Massa was 2nd on the road but a lap down, what is to stop him being caught 'dozing' when Teflonso floors it? He could have 1/3 lap lead before Massa gets to the 1st Safety Car line.

Even if he was in 2nd place he could still pull the same trick so getting lapped cars out of the way may not always eliminate such shenanigans, I expect Smedley would tell him it was magnanimous of him . This is one of the biggest weaknesses of the restarts in my view, someone is napping (or malicious) and everyone behind is completely stuffed as far as catching the leader is concerned.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

What about a full-course yellow: slow down and be prepared to stop for the entire lap. Overtaking nor intentional blocking is not allowed. If necessary the FIA could enforce an minimum lap time.

And wheres the gap for the marshals to do their work plus its still trusting drivers to behave

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by mattt

And wheres the gap for the marshals to do their work plus its still trusting drivers to behave

Do marshals really need a 'gap'? Before 1993 nobody knew better and nobody ever complained about it. With minimum lap times or maximum speeds the drivers will have to slow down to appropriate speeds.

And yes, its about trusting the drivers. But if drivers can't be trusted, than why don't they just red flag the race then?

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Do marshals really need a 'gap'? Before 1993 nobody knew better and nobody ever complained about it. With minimum lap times or maximum speeds the drivers will have to slow down to appropriate speeds.

well i don't know what happened before '93, because i was only born in '91. But from my experience and what I've seen. its a lot easier and quicker to clear an incident if there's a gap

And yes, its about trusting the drivers. But if drivers can't be trusted, than why don't they just red flag the race then?

well that would be the best way but its not practical for TV and everyday fans

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by mattt

But completely confuses the "non-motorhead" watchers, who make up a majority of viewers. i personally would think it would good fun but you would have to do it from the pitlane not the grid else you would end up with issues clearing everybody out of the way.

But even that way would cause major controversy maybe even more than the current system. imagine "teflonso" being released 0.5 seconds to late and then subsequently losing the race because of it.

If non-petrolheads can't understand the concept of stopping a race and then re-starting it with the same gaps between drivers that existed before, how are they going to understand the safety car system (in any of its manifestations)?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Everyone on the lead lap starts from the grid, lapped cars from the pits. Howver it would take a bit of organising and could descend into chaos if one or more cars stalled or broke the clutch or a drive shaft and didn't get away from the grid.

Thank you. Someone who's considering the suggestion sensibly. Yes, there are problems to overcome, but with a bit of thought they aren't insuperable. At the end of it, we would have a perfect system; just onw that has far fewer flaws than the current arrangement.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Woolley

How about the drivers just obey the yellow flags as per the regulations? We don't even need a safety car and all this becomes academic. No need for them to whine at all, just do their jobs properly. But as usual, it's everyone else's fault.

I was about to say that it's an impossibly utopian dream. Because there is no way of quantifying the slowing down or the preparedness to stop, and therefore it is in a driver's instinct to minimise the delay and use the yellow flag to his own advantage. That's how we came to the present situation.

But then I realised it's not impossible. In F1 there is already a device that controls the speed of cars: the pitlane speed limiter. Don't shoot me down too readily because I'm just thinking out loud:
Set a speed limit between the double-waved yellows and the green flags.
Precede the double-waved with a single yellow as a warning.
The speed limit could be the pitlane limit, or some other figure.
Put a handheld radar gun in each marshals post, and have someone pull it out and check speeds. Suitable penalty for anyone caught speeding.
There would be a bit of a grey area for the first few seconds after the flags came out, but that would be no more of a problem than a driver being caught in mid-overtake as a yellow flag comes out.
On second thoughts, I think there would need to be a new flag colour invented, so that it was clearly different from conventional yellow flag useage.

[Woolley]

Just tell them to do as they should else they'll be invited to spend the next race on a busy marshals' post.

Actually, just make them all do that anyway and they'll realise why they need to obey the flag rules and what they're there for. Lots of rules needing new rules, extra flags, different procedures. Pit speed limiter is way too slow for some corners and too fast for others. Just keep slapping them until they learn. A couple of bans will make all the difference - the only problem at the moment is that nobody enforces the existing rules.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by mattt

well i don't know what happened before '93, because i was only born in '91. But from my experience and what I've seen. its a lot easier and quicker to clear an incident if there's a gap.

Before 1993 Formula 1 was unfamiliar with the Safety Car.

well that would be the best way but its not practical for TV and everyday fans

In other words: (the assumed) safety is more important than purity and fairness, but not more important than money?