LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

For the brands represented it shouldn't be too hard to find the fan base. They have a real base of rich guys wanting to have their own Porsche, Audi, Lamborghini or Bentley race car. Now more than a season or partial? That's the question. Think better luck with IMSA and endurance entries. Now if they can get ELMS to accept them they may have something for sales of cars but pain for the ELMS teams and their P2s

In my point of view the WEC should eliminate LMP2 in 2023 or 2024 and put an LMH/LMDH AM in its place, in the same way that it is now GTE PRO and GTE AM.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

In my point of view the WEC should eliminate LMP2 in 2023 or 2024 and put an LMH/LMDH AM in its place, in the same way that it is now GTE PRO and GTE AM.

With budgets that are likely to be at least double?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

In my point of view the WEC should eliminate LMP2 in 2023 or 2024 and put an LMH/LMDH AM in its place, in the same way that it is now GTE PRO and GTE AM.

Why?
LMP2 seems to have been the most successfully stable class for many years.
Why get rid of a good thing?

[canaglia]

if ACO kills lmp2, it basically kills ELMS and 50% of WEC and LM grid

[FIRE]

No need to remove LMP2 class.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Why?
LMP2 seems to have been the most successfully stable class for many years.
Why get rid of a good thing?

A good thing? Are you sure what you are saying?
LMP2 is a ORECA-GIBSON SPEC CLASS, What's so good about that? I can't understand it?
The sportscar lovers like me, we like the variety and the different things, So what is so good and engaging in a SPEC class? I can't understand that.
We know that Porsche, Audi and Glickenhaus are going to offer their cars to private teams, and maybe Ferrari will do too.
Then it would be logical to do a LMDH / LMH AM.

[NaBUru38]

LMP2 is boring, but relatively cheap for its price. The ACO would be unwise to kill it.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

A good thing? Are you sure what you are saying?
LMP2 is a ORECA-GIBSON SPEC CLASS, What's so good about that? I can't understand it?
The sportscar lovers like me, we like the variety and the different things, So what is so good and engaging in a SPEC class? I can't understand that.
We know that Porsche, Audi and Glickenhaus are going to offer their cars to private teams, and maybe Ferrari will do too.
Then it would be logical to do a LMDH / LMH AM.

Yep, I'm 100% sure in what I'm saying.
The sportscar lovers like me, we like the variety and the different things and the large grid numbers with close racing. So what is good about getting rid of 20-25 cars from Le Mans? I can't understand that.

How many of the LMP2 teams do you think would actually be able to afford to do LMH instead? Especially seeing as Graham Goodwin said in post 235 that the budgets are at least double. That signals to me that practically all of the LMP2 teams would head to GTE-AM, if they even stuck around at all.

Funny that you think adding customer Porches, Audis, Glicks, and Ferraris would add to variety, seeing as those cars would already on the grid.
For someone who dislikes having multiple Orecas on the grid, I would have thought you'd know that having multiple versions of cars that are already on the grid doesn't increase variety

[canaglia]

lmp2 is currently an oreca-gibson spec class because ligier and dallara are way inferior cars, it simply there isn't a valide alternative. It's not about ACO, ligier and dallara got also bonus coins to update their cars but it actually nothing changed.
As far I know a lmp2 is still about 500.000€ + engine leasing... maybe only a second hand 007 chassis will be in that range of price in next 2 seasons. It's also unlikely LMDH will be cheap enough stuff for most of lmp2 private teams and their budget.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Yep, I'm 100% sure in what I'm saying.
The sportscar lovers like me, we like the variety and the different things and the large grid numbers with close racing. So what is good about getting rid of 20-25 cars from Le Mans? I can't understand that.

How many of the LMP2 teams do you think would actually be able to afford to do LMH instead? Especially seeing as Graham Goodwin said in post 235 that the budgets are at least double. That signals to me that practically all of the LMP2 teams would head to GTE-AM, if they even stuck around at all.

Funny that you think adding customer Porches, Audis, Glicks, and Ferraris would add to variety, seeing as those cars would already on the grid.
For someone who dislikes having multiple Orecas on the grid, I would have thought you'd know that having multiple versions of cars that are already on the grid doesn't increase variety

Porsche, audis ,Glick and Ferraris is alot of more variety than ORECA-Gibson!!!!! I am also 100% sure of what I say and I hate SPEC classes like ORECA-GIBSON LMP2!!!

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Porsche, audis ,Glick and Ferraris is alot of more variety than ORECA-Gibson!!!!! I am also 100% sure of what I say and I hate SPEC classes like ORECA-GIBSON LMP2!!!

You can't force teams to buy a OnRoak or Dallara chassis.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

A good thing? Are you sure what you are saying?
LMP2 is a ORECA-GIBSON SPEC CLASS, What's so good about that? I can't understand it?
The sportscar lovers like me, we like the variety and the different things, So what is so good and engaging in a SPEC class? I can't understand that.
We know that Porsche, Audi and Glickenhaus are going to offer their cars to private teams, and maybe Ferrari will do too.
Then it would be logical to do a LMDH / LMH AM.

PLEASE stop pretending people can't love sportscars AND racing. Great, we had variety years ago and unsustainable variety recently. We used to have unlimited budgets with tobacco and VERY grey money sources. We don't have that any more, pretending we do just makes me think non-complementary things of people who think grand variety and cars built in a shed will ever return.

[Akrapovic]

I think there is a middle ground here. It's worth mentioning that the previous LMP2 regulations were more open, and the cars were slightly cheaper. The cost cap actually raised the prices of the cars to the cap.

Broadrun is spot on that you can't just fling everything open because it collapses. But LMP2 had a good balance.

[Koenigsegg]

If ACO want more car variety in P2, they need to implement some form of BoP. If not, teams and drivers will gravitate to the slightly quicker car. As happened with P2 now. In the first two years there were more Ligier's, some Dallara's and even an odd Riley. Now it's pretty much Oreca only.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

If ACO want more car variety in P2, they need to implement some form of BoP. If not, teams and drivers will gravitate to the slightly quicker car. As happened with P2 now. In the first two years there were more Ligier's, some Dallara's and even an odd Riley. Now it's pretty much Oreca only.

I think a GT3 approach would be better. They have the Prologue, most years not the weekend before the race, when a nominated driver could work with the ACO to allow joker updates. But I think you need to be VERY careful and thoughtful with that approach. It seems to work well for GT3 as a base, and oh wait, wasn't GT3 thought of as a gentleman's series early on?

You basically have some of the work down for you with what IMSA has allowed with the cars and plenty of testing. And there are drivers out there who are still plenty fast but have retired or moved on to other things who could provide some background and information to allow ONCE, and only ONCE, a year modification. Now, is there the budget for Dallara, Ligier, Multimatic to want to update and possibly eat costs above the cap for such development? And the teams who may be willing to take a flyer and trust?

I think this would have to start with a NEW clean sheet LMP reg set and not try to balance them now to Oreca. Teams have purchased their toys and the outlay is done with a promise of some stability. But the next generation could have some allowance of a pre-homologation test to set a baseline. Keeping in mind it's not to week to week balance but rather in the hands of the same driver(s) set a reasonable expectation of similar lap times.


And yes I know, everyone will want to build the best LM car so picking the right venue will be tough but some things cannot be settled and just have to let them work out. You want no df and settle for that all year to win LM well maybe when the gentleman driver turns in laptimes slower than GT4 you'll rethink it, but then again maybe not.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

If ACO want more car variety in P2, they need to implement some form of BoP. If not, teams and drivers will gravitate to the slightly quicker car. As happened with P2 now. In the first two years there were more Ligier's, some Dallara's and even an odd Riley. Now it's pretty much Oreca only.

Or they could just open the class beyond the four "franchise" constructors. When Norma was allowed into P3, they pretty soon found a market for their cars and shook up the Ligier Cup.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

If ACO want more car variety in P2, they need to implement some form of BoP. If not, teams and drivers will gravitate to the slightly quicker car. As happened with P2 now. In the first two years there were more Ligier's, some Dallara's and even an odd Riley. Now it's pretty much Oreca only.

bop may let a car being slower/faster in an artificial way, it doesn't fix handling or structural problems of the car....

dallara lmp2 is an extreme low drag car, it had a huge top speed (able to hit 340km/h at le mans) but is quite awful in high downforce trim, I've read in more than an interview that it's a crazy unpredictable car... after a lot of laps it makes tires finally work, but then soon after tires are gone.
Ligier generates too much drag, to fix that onroak suggested teams to use low downforce configuration parts on front (no winglets etc...) the car got some more speed on straight but became unstable as well...
oreca is simply perfect, the most aero efficent lmp2, easy to set-up and big logistic/customer support from oreca.
Riley lmp2 was a joke, no need to spend any word about...

bop won't solve dallara and ligier chassis deficits. If lmp2 turned in a spec class it's because onroak and dallara weren't able to make decent cars or however way worse than oreca.

[helgi]

I see, this forum is morphing into "close racing" fans only. Haven't you noticed that number of active members is decreasing? By supporting idiotic FIA policy, like famous talking mouths who are afraid of loosing their income from an area supposed to be a hobby, you just killing the sport.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by helgi

I see, this forum is morphing into "close racing" fans only. Haven't you noticed that number of active members is decreasing? By supporting idiotic FIA policy, like famous talking mouths who are afraid of loosing their income from an area supposed to be a hobby, you just killing the sport.

no big surprise if WEC lost most of the appeal it had only about a couple of years ago

[CTD]

Originally Posted by helgi

I see, this forum is morphing into "close racing" fans only. Haven't you noticed that number of active members is decreasing? By supporting idiotic FIA policy, like famous talking mouths who are afraid of loosing their income from an area supposed to be a hobby, you just killing the sport.

Your observations is an opinion. Thankfully not the only opinion and everybody is allowed an voice, whether you are against the ACO/FIA directions, realistic about them or for them.
I have no idea why you conclude that this forum is becoming single minded. Not everybody agree and far from everybody share the more radikal views of yours.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by helgi

I see, this forum is morphing into "close racing" fans only. Haven't you noticed that number of active members is decreasing? By supporting idiotic FIA policy, like famous talking mouths who are afraid of loosing their income from an area supposed to be a hobby, you just killing the sport.

Lots of us like old school endurance racing, love a close race, but don’t mind a race that pans out the other way and probably expect most to be the latter.

However, perhaps some of think that if it is all we talk about we become a bore. Or if we only ever want to read the same views as our own we worry we come across as a one dimensional simpleton.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by helgi

Haven't you noticed that number of active members is decreasing?

Since when? The number of active users was the highest ever only 4 months ago - it's a bit soon to declare a trend surely?


"Most users ever online was 9,699, 25 Dec 2020"

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Since when? The number of active users was the highest ever only 4 months ago - it's a bit soon to declare a trend surely?


"Most users ever online was 9,699, 25 Dec 2020"

That seems very strange... Christmas day has usually been one of the slowest days on here. I distinctly remember logging in and not finding any new posts on more than one occassion - which is fine, because people have families to spend quality time with and all, but it leads me to believe that this stat is some sort of weird outlier.

Participation in race threads seems to be way down compared to what it was in the ALMS/LMES days. If I find the time to so so, I'll look up some post numbers later today.

[FIRE]

Most forums see a decrease in visitors, it's not Ten Tenths specific.

Instead of LMP2 I think lack of entries in LMP1 is bigger reason. With LMDh and LMH you see there's more interest again.

[Adam43]

Yes, a class like LMP2 is OK when the LMP1 is full.

In all this, from an entrant perspective, LMP2 has done alright and kept the sport going. Those running the sport realize that. If you understand this, you understand why we are where we are. There are many things I think I would do differently if I ran the sport, there are even more I would change if I lived in the theoretical perfect sportscar racing world, but I don't. I don't have to manage the sport with all the pragmatic decisions they have to make, I just watch, but at least I realise this!