[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Well a couple weeks ago F1 was scripted to switch to 1.6liter turbocharged V4 that revved to around 12,000RPM. thats reasonable for reliabilty in a P1 car.

it was suposed to be 1.6 I4 T engine, but Ferrari pulled their joker card out and said, we aint no bloody WRC, in here. so they changed it to a V6 1.8l i think

[MitchZ06]

2.6l V6 iirc.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Diesels do work better with a turbo however they don't need them to run and produce decent power. They have no spark plugs because diesel burns at a much higher temperature than petrol. Ever wonder why a diesel engine has a much higher compression ratio than a petrol engine? The diesel engine compresses the air in the cylinder which increases its temperature, the diesel in injected into the cylinder and ignites from the heat/pressure creating the explosive combustion. Diesels are far more efficient than a petrol engine in terms of power produced for the fuel used and thats why they can use less fuel than a petrol engine (thats why a diesel powered car will go further on the same amount of fuel as a petrol would).

Torque wise a well sorted turbocharged petrol engine will come close to a diesel (my brother has a local FPV ute, its got a turbo I6 that makes about 600hp and 1200Nm (they're made by a Ford-Prodrive company too...)) however a similar hp diesel will easily make upwards of 1500Nm of torque.

Research is your friend....

its yours as well, that diesel would also run at lower RPMS, and as i said before torque at the wheels is all that matters. so the petro turbo at 7000 RPM with 1200Nm is still stronger then a Diesel turbo at 5000 RPM with 1500 Nm

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Diesels do work better with a turbo however they don't need them to run and produce decent power. They have no spark plugs because diesel burns at a much higher temperature than petrol. Ever wonder why a diesel engine has a much higher compression ratio than a petrol engine? The diesel engine compresses the air in the cylinder which increases its temperature, the diesel in injected into the cylinder and ignites from the heat/pressure creating the explosive combustion. Diesels are far more efficient than a petrol engine in terms of power produced for the fuel used and thats why they can use less fuel than a petrol engine (thats why a diesel powered car will go further on the same amount of fuel as a petrol would).

Torque wise a well sorted turbocharged petrol engine will come close to a diesel (my brother has a local FPV ute, its got a turbo I6 that makes about 600hp and 1200Nm (they're made by a Ford-Prodrive company too...)) however a similar hp diesel will easily make upwards of 1500Nm of torque.

Research is your friend....

????? are you confused. Yes a diesel is crap without the turbos since it has no spark plugs. the turbo forces air into a cylider that has a fixed volume. That creates that heat that combust the fuel. In a petrol engine the spark plugs combust the fuel....

You might wanna get back in your chair.... The reason petrols use spark plugs is because it takes more energy to combust gasoline! Diesel fuel is easily combustable hence they rely on air compression.


The compression ratio required to operate a petrol engine without spark plugs is ridiculous and the engine block would explode under all the stress.


have you ever even heard of a naturally aspirated diesel engine??? Practically every single diesel engine is turbocharged. non forced inducton diesel make wayy less power and are less efficient to the point that no reputable manufacturer makes a naturally aspirated diesel engine!

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by arakis

its yours as well, that diesel would also run at lower RPMS, and as i said before torque at the wheels is all that matters. so the petro turbo at 7000 RPM with 1200Nm is still stronger then a Diesel turbo at 5000 RPM with 1500 Nm

Its still got 300Nm more at less RPM! How can the petrol be stronger if thats the case? As I said earlier the diesels have a wider torque spread across their rev range than the petrols do and as such can accelerate harder than a petrol engine even tho they don't rev as high....

Audi Racer can you just stop with where you're trying to go...arguing with a diesel mechanic isn't the best idea I can assure you
Want to know how easy diesel is to combust? Get yourself a cupful, light a match and throw it in. You'll notice it just goes out light you've thrown it into water. Do the same with a cupful of petrol and watch it light up.

I've said all I need to say here. I've given true facts and not complete drivel, take from it what you will....

[arakis]

Diesels are only in front of petrols becouse they still ge tTurbos and larger restrictors, give the same to petroll cars and even judd engines would blow the audis and Peugeus out of the watter.

Its simple, at a current state of things we have petrol engines producing 50hp less and lots of torque less, strap a turbo on it, and increse the restrictor and you would get 100hp increese at least and lots and lots more torque too

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Audi Racer can you just stop with where you're trying to go...arguing with a diesel mechanic isn't the best idea I can assure you
Want to know how easy diesel is to combust? Get yourself a cupful, light a match and throw it in. You'll notice it just goes out light you've thrown it into water. Do the same with a cupful of petrol and watch it light up.

I've said all I need to say here. I've given true facts and not complete drivel, take from it what you will....

we're not talking about puddles of petrol and puddles of diesel Mitch.
We're talking about atomized petrol and atomized diesel....

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by arakis

it was suposed to be 1.6 I4 T engine, but Ferrari pulled their joker card out and said, we aint no bloody WRC, in here. so they changed it to a V6 1.8l i think

According to an article I read yesterday, the 4 pod 1.6 T was agreed to because Audi said they would come to F1 if this engine was adopted. Apparently Audi have changed their minds and so the other F1 manufacturers felt that they no longer need to be lumbered with such an engine.

[arakis]

back to the point, could someone explain to me, if diesels are all the rage, why do they get larger restrictors and a turbo and a larger displacemet then petrols. it aperars to just from that stand point that the petrols would be better if given the same conditions

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

So you believe you speak the truth? There's a reason were hear on the forums and not working for Audi or Peugeot. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Because I haven't applied to work for either?....

And have every right to believe I speak the truth having spent 4 years learning how engines, etc work as a fitter along with my father being a qualified fitter.

Originally Posted by arakis

back to the point, could someone explain to me, if diesels are all the rage, why do they get larger restrictors and a turbo and a larger displacemet then petrols. it aperars to just from that stand point that the petrols would be better if given the same conditions

I think its a case of the ACO being lenient with Audi and Peugeot as they're the 2 biggest companies involved in the top class and spend the most in marketing at the track and in the media promoting not only their own efforts but Le Mans in general.

[Audi Racer]

Arakis good point. I never though of it that way...Technically the Diesels have been overadjusted and given too much power. but the ACO is afraid to do anyhting about it because they don't want to lose Audi or Peugeot yet.....Once they secure the commitement of a petrol manufacturer im certain that the diesels will be cut back to size.

[Audi Racer]

does anyone else go nutty when the tentenths forum stops working

[JAG]

Judd said the other week they need to make engines affordable, as such cannot develop their 3.4 V8 to it's maximum potential, likewise the restrictor breaks couldn't be capitalised upon.

A quick look at Porsche and HPD's 3.4 V8's in P2 highlighted the advantages manufacturers have, more power and torque, better fuel economy, reliability and greater resources for development.

De Chaunac is correct, it's time for manufacturers to make engines available to customers, Peugeot are onboard, HPD and Toyota too, and if rumours are correct, Zytek will prepare Nissans P1 engine.

[Audi Racer]

oooh what i gived to see bright yellow DHL Penske Porsche in P1. arms and legs

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by arakis

Technically the Diesels have been overadjusted and given too much power. but the ACO is afraid to do anyhting about it because they don't want to lose Audi or Peugeot yet....

Yes, and in that sense you might argue that the coming of these two major manufacturers has been the best thing to happen to international sportscar racing in years, yet one could say that it's also been the very worst.

[Adam43]

[mod note]Lots of tedious pointless bickering posts removed.[/mod note]

[Flat12-Aircool]

To be fair to the ACO, we'd have a better idea of the current state of play if Aston Martin could get their act together.

What I don't like about the current regs is how they totally eradicate a diesel cars potential extra fuel mileage, which I thought was half the reason for Audi and Peugeot campaigns.

Why give the diesels a performance advantage in the form of extra power, they don't need it. All they really need is to be given the same size fuel tank as petrols and allowed to go a lap longer between stints. At the same time just give the petrols a small weight break to compensate.

[AGD]

Clearly the reason why the factory/ex-factory HPD and Porsche 3.4Ls were so much faster than the Judd/Zytek/whatever 3.4Ls was because the petrol-diesel balancing rules were off. Clearly. Things like the factory teams having vastly superior budgets to get more testing time, all-pro driving lineups, superior chassis, leading edge tire technology, state of the art simulators, and other unimportant factors like that had absolutely nothing to do with their extreme performance edge. Those sly dogs at Porsche and Honda sure knew how to use the very favorable diesel regulations to make their petrol cars so much faster than the other petrol cars.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

According to an article I read yesterday, the 4 pod 1.6 T was agreed to because Audi said they would come to F1 if this engine was adopted. Apparently Audi have changed their minds and so the other F1 manufacturers felt that they no longer need to be lumbered with such an engine.

This was interesting half-revelation by Adrian Newey:

"The initial decision from the engine working group was for a four-cylinder turbo to be introduced for 2013," said Newey. "The big driver behind that was Audi. They said they would come into the sport if there was a four-cylinder turbo, and that's what everyone agreed in order to get Audi in. They subsequently decided that they won't bother after all, thank you very much, and we were lumbered with a four-cylinder turbo."

http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/story/52832.html

This surely wasn't the only reason. Ferrari was against this from the beginning. Mercedes and Cosworth wanted to postpone the change by one year due cost worries.

So, now it is 1.6L V6.

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by AGD

Clearly the reason why the factory/ex-factory HPD and Porsche 3.4Ls were so much faster than the Judd/Zytek/whatever 3.4Ls was because the petrol-diesel balancing rules were off. Clearly. Things like the factory teams having vastly superior budgets to get more testing time, all-pro driving lineups, superior chassis, leading edge tire technology, state of the art simulators, and other unimportant factors like that had absolutely nothing to do with their extreme performance edge. Those sly dogs at Porsche and Honda sure knew how to use the very favorable diesel regulations to make their petrol cars so much faster than the other petrol cars.

^ this.

Just a quick comparison. A diesel LMP1 engine makes 600hp and 1000nm with a max RPM of 5000. A factory developed petrol engine (lets say) produces 600hp and 450nm with a max RPM of 11000. With both cars geared for the same top speed in max gear, there is a ratio of 11/5 between the highest gears for each car. Thus at the wheels, if the diesel produces 1000x nm, the petrol produces 450x * 11/5, which is 990x.

1000 vs 990 is the real comparison, not 1000 vs 450.

[TF110]

Just wait till Toyota come back. Can't wait to see what they have up their sleeve. They seriously have some of the best facilities in Cologne. Their lap record in the GTONE wasn't broken for another 5 years or so. And this was before they even made their own chassis. They give a Lola team a SuperGT engine modified to run 24hours and take top Petrol class honors. I think it's safe to say when the come back, the Diesels better watch their back. Not to mention Nissan/Renault. Anyway, sticking to the point of this thread. What are the regs that we know of? Less weight for the future LMPs, what is it, 775kg? Fuel limited power? Hybrids?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Anyway, sticking to the point of this thread. What are the regs that we know of? Less weight for the future LMPs, what is it, 775kg? Fuel limited power? Hybrids?

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly10.html

Go to "7.19.10".

[Mal]

There is no way Audi & Pug would be happy (and quite rightly) if someone with an of the shelf chassis with a bolt on out of the box engine could compete with their multi million dollar fully developed state of the art brand new integrated machine. Worse still - an old stick in mud running round in a 5 year chassis moaning that the Manufacturers are too fast. Allowing that would be the quickest surefire way of chasing Audi & Pug out of the sport.

It would be like handing a few multi million pound players to Dagenham Football club so they could go and compete with Manchester United for free.

I would think the moment a fully funded manufacturer steps up with a full works effort things will change.

[Audi Racer]

Cost Caps anyone?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Cost Caps anyone?

No