[BTCC] Rounds 1,2,3 Brands Hatch Indy 2017

[Sodemo]

ITV or the BTCC itself really needs to pull their finger out with regards to getting qualifying and races uploaded so that people can watch them on demand. Quite why they arent just all uploaded to the BTCC's youtube channel is a question. TCR do it as do other series.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What was Plato alluding to with regard to the "changes made to the car on Wednesday"? He said they were still trying to work out the car after this...?

Tim said that the Subarus are forced to have a higher ride height and extra weight beneath the windshield


IMO for them easiest thing to do is drop their engine and use the TOCA Swindon one than JP can't really moan about straighline speed

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Tim said that the Subarus are forced to have a higher ride height and extra weight beneath the windshield


IMO for them easiest thing to do is drop their engine and use the TOCA Swindon one than JP can't really moan about straighline speed

That was all done on Wednesday before the race?

[S griffin]

So what else to add? It seems AJ and Colin are as expected a perfect combo, their battle in R3 was just as we expected hard but fair

I'll give Matt Neal the benefit of the doubt for the incident with Colin, I don't think he'll deliberately go into the left rear like that he ain't stupid

Rob Austin was right to hold his hands up, he was on a hiding to nothing. Shame really, because today he showed he should be up there in the top 10 most weekends

The Team HARD VWs were the surprise and Epps has certainly improved since last season. I'd like to know what happened to hill in race 1, he just disappeared. And Matt Simpson seems to be getting better

Also good to see Sonic proving his worth in the Vauxhall, even if he did have a Mansell moment in Parc Ferme! He's certainly adapted well to NGTC and the Vauxhall already looks a threat. He is a dark horse for a title challenge

MG looked nowhere and the Scoobys work in the last half of 2016 have been in vain, as they couldn't even get in the top ten today. They need to pick things up soon. It's so close though, it's hardly a shame to be last anymore. Even the Audis and Chevys were mixing it at times

Finally can I just praise the reactions of the drivers in all the series today. The amount of times a car was broadside in the road and the drivers managed to avoid them was impressive

Roll on Donny

[fergus_r]

Some excellent car control at Paddock in the last race, and generally good racing all day.

Wheel issues are concerning, although at least they came off at slow speed. I saw something in testing (Porsche FP1) on Friday which was far more frightening, and could have had serious consequences were it to happen on a race day.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

ITV or the BTCC itself really needs to pull their finger out with regards to getting qualifying and races uploaded so that people can watch them on demand. Quite why they arent just all uploaded to the BTCC's youtube channel is a question. TCR do it as do other series.

Last season they were normally available by Sunday evening on this page http://www.itv.com/btcc/races

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

ITV or the BTCC itself really needs to pull their finger out with regards to getting qualifying and races uploaded so that people can watch them on demand. Quite why they arent just all uploaded to the BTCC's youtube channel is a question. TCR do it as do other series.

No chance for full races on YouTube. Not in the next 5 years anyway.

TCR is a unique case as it's a burgeoning series with nothing to lose and it all to gain, plus a much smaller fan base.

Once a series reaches a certain size, TV rights is a revenue stream, which then helps to make the series better and wider known. You don't see F1 putting full races for free on YouTube. But you do see them selling the coverage to Channel 4, who then put it for free on All4, where they serve ads.

Supercars (for overseas views like myself) and WRC put their full coverage behind a paywall. (WTCC also had a service, last season at least)

DTM do a live stream on YouTube, but geo-locked to only those countries where a channel hasn't paid for the rights. Likewise WorldRX.

The WRC, Supercars, WorldRX, WEC, FormulaE and DTM do provide 'highlights' for free across all social channels and on that point, the BTCC has stepped up the game this season. ITV Motorsport where uploading clips mere moments after they happened live during the races. Top job.

https://twitter.com/itvmotorsport/st...28801324154880
https://twitter.com/itvmotorsport/st...77802412711936

After all, the full BTCC races will be on the ITV BTCC website and highlights on ITV Hub for free.

[AdrianM]

Season reviews are available as digital downloads on Duke.

https://www.dukevideo.com/prd3944ED/...-Part-Download

[thlbtcc]

Happy days.

https://www.motorsport.com/btcc/phot...lery/?r=162923

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Tim said that the Subarus are forced to have a higher ride height and extra weight beneath the windshield


IMO for them easiest thing to do is drop their engine and use the TOCA Swindon one than JP can't really moan about straighline speed

Perhaps Plato may feel it is better to not be vocal in the future, both positive or negative.

For the second half of 2016, and right up until Wednesday, Plato has been claiming that they have the best car in the field that gives the perfect combination of weight distribution, traction, CoG and power. Having blown his own trumpet so much (because it was all his idea of course), to the point that an interview released on Wednesday morning said 'The car balance is good. We've improved in every area since last year. We've got a nicer car to drive. It's got more rear grip, it's less nervous and it feels like we've made some improvements with the engine.' then is it any surprise that the series organisers felt they had to balance out the field.

Let's for a minute accept that Plato has been 100% truthful throughout the development of the car - then TOCA would have to apply some form of measures or BMR would walk away with the title and viewing would decline.

Previous quotes from the man himself include:

' ‘Carlos’ and I realised the Levorg, with its lowline, flat-four (boxer) engine would be the perfect car.'
'the technical package that Subaru can give us from a road car was the Holy Grail.'
'the engine – it’s half as long as a four-cylinder engine and it’s half as high, so weight distribution and the centre of gravity [is better]. We can do whatever we want.'
'The package is stunning – I really believe it’s going to be a game-changer.'

Anyone with an interest in BTCC will no that any advantage gained by a car design or feature will be eliminated in some fashion by TOCA. Plato is right; the Subaru is a game-change, and guess what - TOCA have changed the game.
Now is the time to look within BMR and work on developing the car under the current regulations/restrictions because the RWD-friendly tracks are coming up soon - and WSR look ready for them.

[Sodemo]

So what actually happened on Wednesday then? Was it then that BMR were told to change a bunch of stuff, or were BMR told weeks ago and they only actually got around to putting it on the car on Wednesday. Either way, it smacks of poor direction from TOCA if they were only told 3 days before the first event, or poor planning on behalf of BMR if they only changed / tested the car with the changes on Wednesday the 29th of March.

[porsche962fan]

yes this article was published just ahead of Wednesday where Plato seemed ecstatic

http://www.touringcars.net/2017/03/j...g-best-package

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Perhaps Plato may feel it is better to not be vocal in the future, both positive or negative.

For the second half of 2016, and right up until Wednesday, Plato has been claiming that they have the best car in the field that gives the perfect combination of weight distribution, traction, CoG and power. Having blown his own trumpet so much (because it was all his idea of course), to the point that an interview released on Wednesday morning said 'The car balance is good. We've improved in every area since last year. We've got a nicer car to drive. It's got more rear grip, it's less nervous and it feels like we've made some improvements with the engine.' then is it any surprise that the series organisers felt they had to balance out the field.

Let's for a minute accept that Plato has been 100% truthful throughout the development of the car - then TOCA would have to apply some form of measures or BMR would walk away with the title and viewing would decline.

Previous quotes from the man himself include:

' ‘Carlos’ and I realised the Levorg, with its lowline, flat-four (boxer) engine would be the perfect car.'
'the technical package that Subaru can give us from a road car was the Holy Grail.'
'the engine – it’s half as long as a four-cylinder engine and it’s half as high, so weight distribution and the centre of gravity [is better]. We can do whatever we want.'
'The package is stunning – I really believe it’s going to be a game-changer.'

Anyone with an interest in BTCC will no that any advantage gained by a car design or feature will be eliminated in some fashion by TOCA. Plato is right; the Subaru is a game-change, and guess what - TOCA have changed the game.
Now is the time to look within BMR and work on developing the car under the current regulations/restrictions because the RWD-friendly tracks are coming up soon - and WSR look ready for them.

That dovetails nicely with what Alan Gow was saying to Steve and Co in the pre-race build up when they were on the subject of Manufacturer entries. Long and the short of what he said was that they (TOCA) welcome manufacturer support but unlike the old days a Manufacturer can't just buy a championship through throwing money at engineering. The cars will be made equal and any manufacturer support should be put towards being able to afford/attract better drivers (by that he clearly meant the WSR/BMW/Turkington and PMR/Vauxhall/Chilton situations) and behind the scenes stuff like logistics and staff.

Last year BMR had effectively done just that, they'd brought in a manufacturer with the sole aim of engineering a car that pushed the limits of the rulebook and they've been pegged back a bit.

Whilst TOCA's balance of performance is often aggressive it works judging by how close the field was yesterday. And as Team Dynamics have proven (4 times now if you include Jordan's customer Civic) even if you're pegged back on boost you can engineer a decent enough chassis to make up for it.

Right now BMR have rested on the laurels of the Levorg's low COG and the fact it's RWD. Take those benefits away (or in this case reduce their effects) and the car is far from anyone's first choice for a touring car, it's a big blocky beast of a car compared to the nimble little hatches of the other teams. They need to address things like the chassis, setup and aero (The Levorg, much like the MG6 seem to have quite basic (dare I say lazy) aero designs without the refinements seen on other models) but even then as Dynamics proved with the Tourer even with the best engineering in the world an estate car isn't going to win championships without some sort of boost.

The other (three) elephants in the room are Plato's teammates who are struggling to get to grips with the car. Losing Turkington will have been a big blow and will have lost the championship for them this year, as I don't feel any of the four guys they have can get it up there consistently.

Right now, they have two weeks to tweak the hell out of the car and see what they can come up with for Donington. After that Mr P needs to sit Subaru down and convince them they need to switch to the WRX or Impreza hatch as soon as that's available as the Levorgs won't remain viable for much longer in my eyes.

[850Estate]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Could you expand? I stopped my recording at the end of the driver interviews and went out.

SR: "And Jason Plato, his team have got some work to do"

PO'N: "Yeah they have and it's a real worry, I mean, *pauses* ye know, there's things obviously going on within the team...they need to straighten that out. They've got to get to Donington and they've got to get...ye know...get the game on the road"

*Deep sigh*

"If I was Jason and everyone else in that team I'd be really worried, I'll be honest"

Wanted to watch it back to make sure I got it entirely accurate. The way Paul was talking suggested he was a bit uncomfortable talking about it, which is why I've put it verbatim.

It's shame to hear about the struggles. Take Plato out of it, and what we're effectively seeing is one of the very few unique cars on the grid struggling. If there was one criticism of NGTC it would be that all the cars are very similar. Having a Subaru with its own, unique, engine, own drivetrain, own COG and own bodystyle helps to make things a bit more interesting. I dare say if they had Turkington/Sutton/Cole and Price the reaction from *some* on here would be quite different.

[thlbtcc]

Hopefully, we get to Donington and Plato is on the pace. Also, Sutton needs to get his head straight.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So what actually happened on Wednesday then? Was it then that BMR were told to change a bunch of stuff, or were BMR told weeks ago and they only actually got around to putting it on the car on Wednesday. Either way, it smacks of poor direction from TOCA if they were only told 3 days before the first event, or poor planning on behalf of BMR if they only changed / tested the car with the changes on Wednesday the 29th of March.

Perhaps Gremlins from the car have got into their website?
(Our work machines have blocked BMR's site due to Malware being present - be warned if people are looking at browsing there).

There seem to be a few mixed messages though (but then you'd expect a bit of 'spin' from a driver).
The BMR twitter reports that the team have had to do a lot of work over the last couple of weeks, but Plato initially claimed they had been relaxed over winter and had removed some weight which made them lighter and faster.
The line now is that they have a lot of numbers to crunch to understand what is happening. If the changes were only introduced to the team on Wednesday, you would expect the message would be more like the last few days, rather than a couple of weeks.

[rdjones]

A couple of interesting races. From what we saw I think that the title will be going to a BMW driver (not sure which one). As other's have said all the Honda's also look strong and as for the Subaru's/BMR they have a lot of work to do between now and Donington.

[Sodemo]

This is what I find frustrating about the BTCC. If technical changes have been imposed on the Subaru team, there should be a press release issued, stating exactly what has been changed, there just seems to be zero transparency. Its occurred before though when tech changes have been forced on the teams and there is no mention of it to the public. I do feel sorry for Team BMR a little as they have obviously designed a car within the rules, and then have had some kind of technical intervention (I imagine) and are now struggling around trying to find some pace. I feel even more sorry for them if those changes were only imposed 3 days before the first event.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 850Estate

It's shame to hear about the struggles. Take Plato out of it, and what we're effectively seeing is one of the very few unique cars on the grid struggling. If there was one criticism of NGTC it would be that all the cars are very similar. Having a Subaru with its own, unique, engine, own drivetrain, own COG and own bodystyle helps to make things a bit more interesting. I dare say if they had Turkington/Sutton/Cole and Price the reaction from *some* on here would be quite different.

It's a shame to see any car struggling. I hope that BMR can sort out their issues, and be challenging for manufacturer wins alongside TD/WSR/PMR and 888.
BMR are not the first, and I'm sure they won't be the last, to raise 'concerns' with the way a performance equalising measure has been imposed on their car.

WSR have previously mentioned their under-floor, Motorbase (and TD) their engine boost....
The list of complaints about other team's advantages is endless - and will always be so when that championship is based around performance equalisation.

Last August's formal exchange between BMR and TOCA seems to be the early signs of TOCA intending to ensure that the Subaru does not become dominant.

One of the aims of NGTC regulations is to provide a format where privateer entrants can select any one of many manufacturers, and be competitive in the field. If a car design results in it being the only logical choice to race with, then NGTC has failed.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Its occurred before though when tech changes have been forced on the teams and there is no mention of it to the public.

WSR under-floor being one example.
Part of the lack of transparency though is that a significant part of the target audience are not seen as wanting the championship to be about technical aspects - and are given an illusion of family road cars racing each other with the only performance equalisation happening through ballast.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I do feel sorry for Team BMR a little as they have obviously designed a car within the rules, and then have had some kind of technical intervention (I imagine) and are now struggling around trying to find some pace. I feel even more sorry for them if those changes were only imposed 3 days before the first event.

I don't feel sorry for them having performance-equalising measures imposed. But if it was only imposed 3 days before an event, then I do feel sorry for them on that score.

Perhaps, they should be allowed some extra testing days under regulation 6.11.1.a.ii) - 'Teams competing with new design cars will be permitted up to 5 additional test days. For the avoidance of doubt, ‘new design cars’ are models that have not previously competed in the Championship under NGTC technical regulations and which are significantly technically different from the make or model previously used by that Team.'?

I know it is not technically a new model, but if it is significantly technically different, then they have been dealt an unfair hand.

Is it a coincidence that the last permitted date for unrestricted testing was 29 March 17 - the day that the weight/height penalty was allegedly applied?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

This is what I find frustrating about the BTCC. If technical changes have been imposed on the Subaru team, there should be a press release issued, stating exactly what has been changed, there just seems to be zero transparency. Its occurred before though when tech changes have been forced on the teams and there is no mention of it to the public. I do feel sorry for Team BMR a little as they have obviously designed a car within the rules, and then have had some kind of technical intervention (I imagine) and are now struggling around trying to find some pace. I feel even more sorry for them if those changes were only imposed 3 days before the first event.

way back in early november it was reported by the media (autosport etc) and confirmed by bmr and toca what is happening.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126972

http://www.btccforum.net/forum/showt...gged-back-quot

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

way back in early november it was reported by the media (autosport etc) and confirmed by bmr and toca what is happening.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126972

http://www.btccforum.net/forum/showt...gged-back-quot

Yep, I remember reading that article myself last year, however nothing more has been said about it, as in exactly what has been changed. There should be a specific list of changes that have been imposed on any given car. All we have been told is that there has been a "COG calculation" and it has been imposed on the Subaru cars. Well ok, how is that calculated? What has changed? Have they added extra weight? How much? Where? Do the other teams also have this COG balance imposed? If not, why not? I doubt all cars have the same COG...?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Yep, I remember reading that article myself last year, however nothing more has been said about it, as in exactly what has been changed. There should be a specific list of changes that have been imposed on any given car. All we have been told is that there has been a "COG calculation" and it has been imposed on the Subaru cars. Well ok, how is that calculated? What has changed? Have they added extra weight? How much? Where? Do the other teams also have this COG balance imposed? If not, why not? I doubt all cars have the same COG...?

its explained that its balancing the cog of just the engines, not the whole car.
apparently they do the same in australian v8 supercars because some engines are all aluminium and some are steel etc.
http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/04/28/...-barbagallo-2/

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

its explained that its balancing the cog of just the engines, not the whole car.
apparently they do the same in australian v8 supercars because some engines are all aluminium and some are steel etc.
http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/04/28/...-barbagallo-2/

I understand that, but the point still stands, does this apply to all the teams with their cars? I doubt all the teams have identical COG engines?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I understand that, but the point still stands, does this apply to all the teams with their cars? I doubt all the teams have identical COG engines?

its only balance the cog difference between a boxer and an inline engine