IMSA: USCR 2018

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Unless it's to allow DPI to speed up as they develop to where they're too fast to be in the same class as P2, then this seems dumb. If that is the point, P2 will essentially become the new PC with a bunch of good drivers paired with a gentleman driver that causes a bunch of wrecks and we'll all hate them too.

If it is to allow DPI to speed up and become more of an LMP1-lite type of class, then I'm cool with that.

Yup. If IMSA lobbies FIA to make a P1-L/DPi class and lets the DPis run wild ... great.

Though really there are only three DPis and four wannabes. I don't think it is the rules holding back ESM and Mazda.

If P2 were to become a Pro-Am class .... yeah, a faster PC class. Exactly what the series needs. More and worse accidents.

And DPi would still be the Cadillac class.

If there were eight or ten solid, competitive DPis, instead of two or three ....

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yup. If IMSA lobbies FIA to make a P1-L/DPi class and lets the DPis run wild ... great.

Though really there are only three DPis and four wannabes. I don't think it is the rules holding back ESM and Mazda.

If P2 were to become a Pro-Am class .... yeah, a faster PC class. Exactly what the series needs. More and worse accidents.

And DPi would still be the Cadillac class.

If there were eight or ten solid, competitive DPis, instead of two or three ....

I know people are getting fed up with Caddy winning everything, but this is the first year of DPi. So I think it's a bit early to slate it for that.

I wouldn't split the classes, but I don't see the problem with P2s being Pro-Am. They run in ELMS, WEC/LM24 like that, and the old ones run in AsLMS. They don't have anywhere near as many issues as PC had. Are American Am drivers diabolically bad or something? Because that format works everywhere else.

[chernaudi]

PC cars had no traction control and ran on either cheap Michelin shaved track day DOT legal tires, or on the rock hard Continental DP tires.

And plenty of the PC accidents I saw were at the hands of pros just as often as the am drivers, though it seems that the incidents increased during the last year of the ALMS and into the merger era. That's when the Continental tires came online, as well as restrictions on ride heights and set ups.

[Maelochs]

I can understand the Cadillacs winning ... and I still have some hope for ESM. Mazda? Based on their history of amazing success in prototypes ... I think they might reach a point where they can get two cars to finish in the majority of races.

All the other DPis are rumors and dreams ... though Penske maybe could happen.

There are 12 cars entered in the Prototype class at the Glen ... and Rebellion isn't full-season.

WEC might be able to get by with only two teams and four cars in its top class ... but even there, how would it work if both teams ran the same cars?

Whatever IMSA does, it does. it;'s just cars driving in circles after all. Still, I would like to see at least a couple more serious teams in DPi before it became a stand-alone class.

[fieldodreams79]

I love how when things are going decent enough, people start talking of tinkering with it to either screw it up or get people's attention.

Regardless, I don't see it happening.

[TF110]

I think the article basically says that the dpi's won't be straddled anymore. They have the pace, especially the Caddy, to run seconds faster.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I can understand the Cadillacs winning ... and I still have some hope for ESM. Mazda? Based on their history of amazing success in prototypes ... I think they might reach a point where they can get two cars to finish in the majority of races.

All the other DPis are rumors and dreams ... though Penske maybe could happen.

There are 12 cars entered in the Prototype class at the Glen ... and Rebellion isn't full-season.

WEC might be able to get by with only two teams and four cars in its top class ... but even there, how would it work if both teams ran the same cars?

Whatever IMSA does, it does. it;'s just cars driving in circles after all. Still, I would like to see at least a couple more serious teams in DPi before it became a stand-alone class.

Well, if just one of the rumored entries between Penske/Andretti/Audi come true, DPI is well subscribed. Then it becomes like the Penske Porsche vs Acura P2 days. Then we'll have a few really cool years, while all the P2 teams are second fiddle, then Penske/Andretti pulls out, it becomes a dwindling class, one of the Cadillac teams leave, and the P2s are brought back into the top class, like how ALMS combined the P1 and P2 cars for a year or two, and history repeats itself again.....

I'm fine with it as long as it's being done to make the DPI's P1-L, like I said, since we'd have (likely) two manufacturers at the top with the odd good result for ESM and (lol) Mazda. It gives all the P2 teams a class to actually compete for wins, and with 3 cars already in it, if the PC teams add 2 more to the class, it's a solid 5 car field of cool looking and sounding cars with more variety than PC ever had. So if that's the intent, I'm all for it. Could this be an indication that the series has additional confirmation of another big team like Penske or Andretti coming into DPI already?

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the article basically says that the dpi's won't be straddled anymore. They have the pace, especially the Caddy, to run seconds faster.

If true then that is why I sort of shake my head. The whole talk of partnership with ACO and allowing P2s a fighting chance. It's why I mentioned opening up the tire regs to the P2s. The BoP will be harder but I figure the P2 teams are still strapped with Am drivers. So it offsets the handicap but the cars can be seconds faster and compete for pole position

[chernaudi]

Screw winning poles when winning races is what pays the points and prize money. I'd bet that Peugeot would trade every pole they won at LM for a win all the times that Audi beat them at LM (Peugeot was 1 in 5 for LM wins in that period), and I'd bet that Toyota would trade their 2014 and '17 poles for a win, and they're 0 in how many tries since 1985?

It's one thing to be fast for a lap, it's another to be fast for the whole race and put a whole race together.

Right now, even if DPI and LMP2 are equal, you can't beat an all-pro DPI team with a pro-am line up. Hence one argument in favor of the split, the other being that DPIs are factory developed, and VFR/SOD have already said that they're a bit tired of seeing DPI teams pegged back to roughly match an Oreca LMP2 car in performance. And they own an ACO spec LMP2 car, and surely wouldn't benefit from DPIs being allowed to be sped up.

[Jonerz]

All I know is I still don't believe the Ford GT program will ever come to fruition. Only Racer and Sportscar 365 have reported on it. I bet Ganassi and Ford stay in DP.

Wait...

Chris

[FormulaFox]

They have enough DPis(especially if the Honda program actually does come to fruition) for a standalone class, but the way I've always looked at a 4-class series, They'll be two P2s short of the ideal minimum. We only have one new full-time P2 entry in the rumor mill, and one of the current ones are in danger of going away if tehy can't find a new sponsor.

So... unless IMSA's got some info so well hidden that nobody else knows about it, probably not the right time to split the two.

[AoB Special Stage]

From the comments section of S365, I present dumb comment of the week: "IMSA and the ACO included have to be the two most anti GM organizations I have ever seen."

[carbsmith]

“Obviously it was very successful in the ALMS with that kind of Pro-Am attitude.

Well that's on outright lie. Pro-Am P2 never had more than 2 full time teams.

“I don’t think that’s fair either. [Cadillac] did a good job on developing the car, building the car and building it to the rules and they’ve shown that.

The rules that don't exist.

Whole thing is a sad joke. Don't know whether to laugh at the BoP or laugh at the P2 teams that ask for their own class so they can get easy wins but this entire thing is a painful reflection of how broken the last 10 years have made sports car racing.

[Akrapovic]

Everyone knew it was a BoP Class when they signed up. IMSA have been pretty forward with that point. So what's happening to Caddy is exactly what we all knew would happen, and nobody, not one single person, has the right to complain about it - it was always billed as that.

If they're going to move away from a BoP class then it's purely because Mr Penske has been moaning about it, and they want him there.

[chernaudi]

My "beef" (as Akrapovic said, everyone knew that DPI was intended to be a BOP class when it was created) is that you do have the factory teams doing what they're doing in part to get at least a theoretical advantage. We've seen time and time again even in a BOP formula that teams will design something when there's seemingly no incentive to, because it'll be easier to manage BOP.

We know for sure with ESM's deal with Nissan being an engine supply, bodywork design and sponsorship program, that they're not spending a ton of money relative to other programs. Even Mazda is spending relatively little money even though they went hawg wild on making a unique body for their car. But it's clear that GM have spent a fair bit of money on the Cadillac DPI program. The money spent probably is only a drop in the ocean compared to what Porsche and Toyota are spending on their LMP1 cars right now. But it's nevertheless for sure a lot more money than just buying a bone stock ACO spec Ligier, Oreca, Dallara or Riley.

You also have to combine this with he fact that while the ACO spec cars have their specs frozen without an ACO and/or IMSA waiver (or use of the Joker card upgrades), it does seem that the DPI cars have been allowed to make upgrades all season long. Minor upgrades? Probably, but you make enough of them, it can make a big difference at the end of the day.

I'll put it this way: if DPI was supposed to be a pure BOP class where the best DPI shouldn't be faster than the best LMP2, then what incentive would GM, Mazda, or even Nissan with ESM have to develop their own powertrains and bodykits? It's just like in LMP1 where if you were going to be BOP'd against a non-hybrid car, why run a hugely expensive and complex system instead of going for the smallest you can run?

I think that this sounds like IMSA responding to fan and media criticism over BOP and the argument that a factory developed car will almost always be faster than a customer car aimed at a privateer team, even if the cars share the same core and several systems.

Either that, or we have at least one team in IMSA wanting a pro-am prototype class to replace LMPC that's supposedly on its way out, and that's a team that does run a pro-am driver line up. We have another that's got the only true all pro LMP2 driver line up in the world right now, and that comes down probably to one of two things. Either SOD/VFR are die hard on running a ACO spec LMP2 and don't think it's viable for them to go for an overall win right now due to performance imbalance between LMP2s and DPIs. Or SOD/VFR are looking at running a DPI and don't think it's right for a factory developed car to be held to a privateer oriented customer car's performance standings.

Granted, at the end of the day, you do have to ask is it worth it for IMSA to split DPI into a LMP1 privateer-like DPI/GTP class, and have a separate class for ACO LMP2s? In my honest opinion, that's probably where things are headed, but the math has to be right. Even now, there's almost enough DPIs (with 1-2 more different one's on the way) to break them off into their own class. And if it'll be based on LMP1 privateer performance, LMP1 privateer cars can race in the US outside of whatever the WEC does.

However, right now, we only have 3 ACO spec LMP2s on the grid. That grid might grow if there's a platform that favors pro-am driver line ups and lower costs, and there's (let's face it) little incentive to run a LMP2 against DPIs right now, especially with a pro-am line up.

If a split class is in the works, I'd argue that IMSA is on the right track. But if they don't intend to do it, we're stuck where right now DPIs are the only cars with a solid chance of winning.

[ApexClips]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'll put it this way: if DPI was supposed to be a pure BOP class where the best DPI shouldn't be faster than the best LMP2, then what incentive would GM, Mazda, or even Nissan with ESM have to develop their own powertrains and bodykits? It's just like in LMP1 where if you were going to be BOP'd against a non-hybrid car, why run a hugely expensive and complex system instead of going for the smallest you can run?

The impetus for manufacturers to bring their own powertrains and body kits to the table remains the same as it was in the original DP class. The bodywork is theoretically for brand identification and marketing purposes only. The more open powertrain regs allow teams to bring pre-existing platforms which they may have already developed and logged many test and racing hours on. Allowing manufacturers to run recognizable road-relevant powertrains can also be very useful from a marketing perspective.

As to your speculation about the possibility of inadequate BOP or "gaming" of BOP, I believe that's the inherent flaw and risk in any BOP-based racing class. To IMSA's credit, I've seen very little evidence of any teams gaining an on-track performance advantage based on outright car performance (or lack of "balance" as such). I wouldn't be so quick to speculate about the existence of such a problem when the most successful teams are also the ones which regularly bring the best driver lineups, event prep, and racecraft/strategy.

I do agree with your take on the possible benefits of an eventual seperate P2-based pro-am class. The numbers don't really add up to justify such a class currently (IMO), but if a few more pay drivers with prototype aspirations were to spring up, this could be a very good solution for IMSA.

[chernaudi]

Also, my issue is that even if it wasn't IMSA's intent for it to turn out that way, the DPI cars unfettled, especially the Cadillacs, would probably be significantly faster than the ACO spec LMP2s. It's sort of like if the LMP2s were allowed to run on ACO LMP2 spec Michelin or Dunlop tires and the DPIs were still on Continental rubber.

Personally, I'd be OK with a bit more performance out of the DPI cars, maybe even LMP1 privateer-like if that's possible (I'd also be OK with factory supported teams--not full factory efforts, but factory supported privateers--in LMP1 privateer, such as a DPI-like effort, but that's a bit of a different story). And if the numbers support it, I wouldn't mind a class for ACO spec LMP2s focused on the pro-am aspect. But the numbers have to back up such an argument. Granted, LMPC is supposed to be going away as a WTSC class at the end of the season, so that might help there.

[Makaze]

Penske wants the Dpi to be the American LMP1.

So for that to happen, the Dpi can't be BOP to the spec LMP2.

[jimclark]

[ApexClips]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, my issue is that even if it wasn't IMSA's intent for it to turn out that way, the DPI cars unfettled, especially the Cadillacs, would probably be significantly faster than the ACO spec LMP2s. It's sort of like if the LMP2s were allowed to run on ACO LMP2 spec Michelin or Dunlop tires and the DPIs were still on Continental rubber.

I think you're overstating the advantage DPI cars possess here. The P2 cars come with their own advantages, as some of them have been proven by more than a season's worth of prior racing development with multiple international teams. That would be valuable in any form of racing, but to have such a leg up in endurance sports cars could be crucial.

Another side of this dynamic: if the DPI cars truly have a potentially greater unrestricted performance envelope, then they might be less optimized than a competitive P2 car. The P2s are designed exhaustingly to work well within the more specific current performance window and may reap certain advantages (set-up flexibility?) as a result.

[chernaudi]

The LMP2s were designed with the Gibson V8 in mind, and I'm pretty sure that the stock block engines are probably heavier than the Gibson engine, even the Mazda 4 banger if you take into account turbocharger plumbing and added coolers.

But the DPIs have been developed with different aero, and their engines make more torque than the Gibson engine, which is a 4.2 liter NA V8. The Cadillac/Chevrolet LT small block probably makes tons more torque, even if restricted to the same power.

So far, the DPIs still seem to have the legs on the LMP2 cars. Not by a ton like at Daytona or even Sebring, but enough that they still have an edge. Granted, that might not be as evident if an Oreca or Ligier was driven by an all pro driver line up. VFR/SOD have an all pro line up, but if you've read or heard comments about the Riley in ACO spec at LM, the Riley has been a dog all season long. That's a big reason why Mazda have several updates online that they hope to have on both cars by next month.

But as of right now, the edge lies with the DPI cars. And I'd bet that if both types made about 700bhp and were more optimized, they'd be up there with what the ACO are envisioning that LMP1 privateer laptimes ought to be, especially the DPIs as they do have more powertrain flexibility to get more power.

[Matt]

I mean the JDC car and the 52 with Pla in it today seemed to show that the ACO P2 cars can take it to the DPi's.

Don't need to split them.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Yepp,all you need is reliability,good strategy,and pro drivers.but people won't admit that.all they saw was Taylor hit trouble and barbosa run away,and will still push their agenda that Imsa and Dpi are a joke.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Matt

I mean the JDC car and the 52 with Pla in it today seemed to show that the ACO P2 cars can take it to the DPi's.

Don't need to split them.

I was thinking the same thing after the race. It is interesting to me that certain teams are asking for this. To me this says funding a team is difficult but a paying AM would be beneficial to the bottom line. During the race I was wondering how JDC and PR1 fund their cars, anybody know?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by joeb

I was thinking the same thing after the race. It is interesting to me that certain teams are asking for this. To me this says funding a team is difficult but a paying AM would be beneficial to the bottom line. During the race I was wondering how JDC and PR1 fund their cars, anybody know?

Am drivers definitely kept PR1 from competing for the overall.

JDC has a solid lineup even with Am's.