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Old 11 Jul 2012, 19:54 (Ref:3105301)   #651
AndrewF31
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AndrewF31 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAndrewF31 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Not just disappointing..... depressing.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 19:58 (Ref:3105303)   #652
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Originally Posted by spectre200 View Post
Endurance Info is now reporting that JMB have pulled out of GTE Pro for Donington, and will be looking at other series instead. I wonder if JMW will show up now for a class of 1?
If JMW see the season out and simply finish each race they'll have a guaranteed win and an automatic Le Mans invite at the end of the year. If they've budgeted for it then it makes sense to stay.

With a grid of just 13 there is no way I'm attending this event, particularly with the UK's rather random and extreme weather of late. Am I right in thinking there is only one support series on the bill here too? Simply not worth the ticket price.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 20:06 (Ref:3105309)   #653
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Dan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDan Friel should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
SPEED Euroseries is also running on the Sunday.. 15 cars. They have a total of 9 hours of running time over the weekend! Great timetable.

Caterham Academy and a historic race are running on Saturday as well.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 21:27 (Ref:3105351)   #654
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That´s an absolute disaster
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 21:48 (Ref:3105358)   #655
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FordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid


Heard about this on a podcast and found it on another forum as this an actual promotional poster for the race, wow...
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 21:54 (Ref:3105361)   #656
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Really feel for Donington. They've done a lot in terms of promotion in likes of Autosport, there's a decent media package in place, a big screen has been sorted, and they've been delivered a grid like this.

Overall the ELMS package should work. LMP2 cars with a chance at overall victory, a guaranteed LM slot for winners, a perfectly respectable media package, and circuits which, if not classics, aren't catastrophes.

So what's wrong? Okay the schedule was late in being announced, and there are more calendar conflicts than ideal (a reflection of there being more GT series than anyone can realistically keep track of) but what's stopping people running the machinery they have?
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 21:58 (Ref:3105363)   #657
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Heard about this on a podcast and found it on another forum as this an actual promotional poster for the race, wow...
Trust me - not an official poster...

Still quite a nice pithy theme from the l'Endurance guys though.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 22:00 (Ref:3105364)   #658
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Trust me - not an official poster...

Still quite a nice pithy theme from the l'Endurance guys though.

hahaha, not the first time l'Endurance has done something like this.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 22:05 (Ref:3105368)   #659
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Speaking of the media package - I was under the impression this was going out live on Motors TV (source: ELMS website), but apparently now it's only 2 hours highlights on the UK schedule.
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Old 11 Jul 2012, 22:33 (Ref:3105381)   #660
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apparently the roster decreased, 13 cars at start!
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 08:24 (Ref:3105464)   #661
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Main issue are the tracks, the race in Czech is the only highlight. Don't think many actually car about TV because ELMS is more targeted for pay drivers
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 10:26 (Ref:3105499)   #662
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LC2guy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridLC2guy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Despite the entry list we are still going. There are 3 of us, but we had a 2 for 1 offer on tickets, so have 1 spare. If anyone is thinking of going sat / sun but doesn't have a ticket yet, and is interested in buying 1 half price ( what we paid, i don't want to make any profit ) send me a PM and we can arrange to meet saturday morning. Forever an optimist , i'm still hopeful of a good race at the front, so heres hoping !!!!
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 18:08 (Ref:3105696)   #663
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I say this in my opinion that when the ACO and FIA created a world endurance sportscar series three years ago called the WEC. The ELMS started its decline and entries were fewer and fewer as the dates goes on. 13 cars for this weekend's ELMS event at Donington Park indicates that it is on life support. The two remaining ELMS events at Brno and Portamao could be cancel due to the lack of entries.
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 21:06 (Ref:3105757)   #664
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I dont know whether to laugh or be mortified by John Dagy's latest ELMS article title: "The Nightmare on ELMS street"...
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Old 12 Jul 2012, 23:32 (Ref:3105831)   #665
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I dont know whether to laugh or be mortified by John Dagy's latest ELMS article title: "The Nightmare on ELMS street"...
Its a title he's taken from the L'Endurance unofficial event poster, which makes more sense when you see it.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 00:30 (Ref:3105842)   #666
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I cannot understand the people who are able to put together great packages one year and completely kill them another year by simply wrong and easily predicted decisions. Stephane Ratel had a nice championship by the mid-2000s but did everything to kill it under the World Championship banner. His former colleague from the BPR days Patrick Peter had a great series a few years ago and I remember he was even aiming for the worldwide status. But when ILMC saw a light of the day, I disagreed almost everything this smart guy tried to suggest. The result of 13 cars for the next race of the Le Mans Series is still bellow my worst dreams, but nevertheless: Why Peter wanted to have separate races from WEC? Why he decided to kill LMP1? Why he decided to create a non-sense GTC class, while GT3 provided much more variety and were extremely popular at the same time? And when GT3 was finally and very late introduced, why did they want them penalize to ensure them going slowest of all classes? With so many options (GT3 championships) around, I cannot see much motivation to enter a GT3 car under such circumstances. Too disappointing as I am looking forward to Brno and I will be there even if only 5 cars entered the race. So much I like the LMS!!! Hopefully Peter finds a way to save the series. I would have been happy to help him a year ago when an advice would be enough. However these days, I am not sure there is a way of getting away from the downward spiral. I would still suggest the same for the next season: LMP1, LMP2 and GTE+GT3, probably with no separate GT class classification, unless more then 6 cars in class are entered. Overall classification would also make sense, I believe.

Visit www.lemans-serie.cz (unfortunately in Czech but I believe understandable), some RC racing package we put together. With clever rules and trying to appeal most of potential racers you can easily make entries three to ten times larger than similar 2WD races around held under different organising bodies are able to attract. If it works here, why shouldn't it work in real racing? Killing top classes, creating unsupported non-sense classes and various kind of penalisation will hardly work for the growth of any series :-(
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 03:14 (Ref:3105869)   #667
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Unrestrained, GT3 and GT2 are too close together; the GT2 teams would be ticked to have guys with "cheap" machinery (relatively speaking here) competing with them directly. And GT2 is what they run at Le Mans, NOT GT3.

There was going to be no more of an LMP1 class in the ELMS this year as there is in the ALMS, because the European LMP1 teams went to the WEC; it's just that simple.

The ELMS lost the factories, and so hasn't even the leverage to get highlights on MotorsTV now. It's going to be damn hard to get sponsors with so little exposure, and it's going to be damn hard to get the exposure without the factories. Peter is trying anything, because the real cards he once had to play have simply been removed from the game as far as the ELMS is concerned now.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 09:59 (Ref:3105959)   #668
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It is really not difficult to see the reason, too many GT series in Europe, the opening part of the DSC comment says it all. Given the entry fee for this series and the overall costs the only bonus is the guaranteed entry at Le Mans if you do well enough. That in itself is removed when the ILMC/WEC series entry gets you in at Le Mans anyway even if you are not really qualified.

Enthusiasts that back private teams with their own money have always been the lifeblood of GT racing and there are now too many organisers competing for the entries and too many classes to dilute the interest of such people. GTE pro, GTEam, GT3, GT4, series where they simply mix them up, some let works cars in some don't and so on. GT racing has been so successful it is now a real dogs breakfast and someone needs to get a grip of it, call all the series organisers together and limit the number of allowed packages. That someone has to be the FIA, they are the licensing body.

ELMS should be the pinnacle that the teams aim for, the likes of Ratel, Peter and the ACO have become greedy for their own series. The LM24 is the ultimate goal for all those who want to race a GT car but there the growth of the LMP classes is pushing interest away from GT's, even Radio Le Mans had little time for the GTs this year and only gave info on the top 3 in each class on most occasions when I heard them comment on GTs. Time was when organisers were thankful for GT entries to make the grid viable but in hard times the costs put many off so a race like the Donington one would have enticed entries with start money. Now they could not afford enough to make a difference.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 13:48 (Ref:3106031)   #669
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Unrestrained, GT3 and GT2 are too close together; the GT2 teams would be ticked to have guys with "cheap" machinery (relatively speaking here) competing with them directly. And GT2 is what they run at Le Mans, NOT GT3.
Then there is still something wrong with the classes and needs solution anyway. If I were Peter and wanted to save own series, I would not care. How many GTE you got there anyway? It is ACO turn to adopt either cheaper, or less restricted GT formula. Still believe before the season an attempt to create large GT field with all cars competing together for the LMS GT title, plus separate classification for classes with 6 and more full season entrants, would have made sense and definitely attracted and maintained larger fields than we have now.

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There was going to be no more of an LMP1 class in the ELMS this year as there is in the ALMS, because the European LMP1 teams went to the WEC; it's just that simple.
I know of several teams that were unhappy because of removing LMP1 class. Moreover, race by race entrants, and of course, old LMP1 with full rear wings, fin-less, etc., should have been invited too. And finally, look at the World Championship from 1979-1981. Occasional entrants of over 2-litre Group 6 class (I would consider it equivalent of current LMP1) did really make otherwise dull Group 5 races much more enjoyable.

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The ELMS lost the factories, and so hasn't even the leverage to get highlights on MotorsTV now. It's going to be damn hard to get sponsors with so little exposure, and it's going to be damn hard to get the exposure without the factories. Peter is trying anything, because the real cards he once had to play have simply been removed from the game as far as the ELMS is concerned now.
This is another big mistake that Peter claimed he did not want factories. This was said at the time, they were still racing in LMS here and there. I did not mention this before since it was not a mistake of 2012 but of the previous two seasons. And he may have lost them anyway but did not need to initiate it himself.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 14:24 (Ref:3106039)   #670
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Then there is still something wrong with the classes and needs solution anyway. If I were Peter and wanted to save own series, I would not care. How many GTE you got there anyway? It is ACO turn to adopt either cheaper, or less restricted GT formula. Still believe before the season an attempt to create large GT field with all cars competing together for the LMS GT title, plus separate classification for classes with 6 and more full season entrants, would have made sense and definitely attracted and maintained larger fields than we have now.
Cheaper vs less restricted...so pretty much cheaper or more expensive. Seems like only one of those is actually sustainable. And even still, for smaller GT teams that can't contest multiple continental series (which is probably most of them). GT3 looks to quickly be turning into a manufacturer arms race while at the same time being further complicated by BoP...just look at the effort Audi put into the R8 LMS Ultra only for it to be hit with pretty severe BoP in the various SRO series.

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I know of several teams that were unhappy because of removing LMP1 class. Moreover, race by race entrants, and of course, old LMP1 with full rear wings, fin-less, etc., should have been invited too. And finally, look at the World Championship from 1979-1981. Occasional entrants of over 2-litre Group 6 class (I would consider it equivalent of current LMP1) did really make otherwise dull Group 5 races much more enjoyable.
Ah yeah, but then you have a situation like 2011 ALMS but worse. The teams spending a lot of money on new machinery are not going to like performance balancing making grandfathered cars as competitive as their new cars. I say worse than 2011 ALMS because there are very few LMP1 teams in America in general compared to in Europe, and also Pickett and Dyson were both using grandfathered cars anyway.

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This is another big mistake that Peter claimed he did not want factories. This was said at the time, they were still racing in LMS here and there. I did not mention this before since it was not a mistake of 2012 but of the previous two seasons. And he may have lost them anyway but did not need to initiate it himself.
Agree with you there. Let's face it, in the big scheme of things a series like the LMS is sort of marginal in terms of awareness and exposure, so not having manufacturers to at least bring that little bit of attention to it is not great for the health of the series.

Also I really agree with what old man said regarding the entries for Le Mans. The advent of the WEC has pretty much made the attraction of auto entries for winners of continental series like the ELMS and ALMS pretty much redundant - you can spend your money to compete in those series and if you don't do well, you don't get invited. But if you spend your money for WEC (admittedly a bit more), regardless of your performance you get automatically invited to Le Mans. I feel as if more should be done even to weed out WEC entrants that don't make the cut from competing at Le Mans...
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 20:41 (Ref:3106149)   #671
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show alcholic sponsorship during races is forbidden in EU countries as far i remember.
It's allowed in the UK.

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Speaking of the media package - I was under the impression this was going out live on Motors TV (source: ELMS website), but apparently now it's only 2 hours highlights on the UK schedule.
Motors showing GT Open and F2 live instead.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 20:44 (Ref:3106152)   #672
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It's allowed in the UK.
but in countries like france and belgium isn't allowed anymore. Remeber LM 2010? highcroft racing even keeping the tequila patron's paintscheme on the car, couldn't show the "tequila patron" logo.
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Old 13 Jul 2012, 21:01 (Ref:3106156)   #673
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It seems a bit silly though, when you see a livery like the Marlboro white and red, because you know darn well what the sponsor is, even with the lettering blacked out or removed.
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Old 14 Jul 2012, 03:49 (Ref:3106226)   #674
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Yep , its completely silly , banning advertising in the first place .
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Old 14 Jul 2012, 03:58 (Ref:3106229)   #675
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It seems a bit silly though, when you see a livery like the Marlboro white and red, because you know darn well what the sponsor is, even with the lettering blacked out or removed.
Well for someone who has seen the branding already numerous times its easily recognizeable. But to people who don't smoke they will probably have no clue what the colors stand for.
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