BMW E28's in motorsport?

[Peter Mallett]

Yeah, that's the 1981 530 as driven by Jan Lammers (I think) among others. It has been rebuilt with a 525 engine to group 2 regs. Sadly though Group 2 ran centre locks and this doesn't which kind of makes it a replica. Very well put together and a nice car but not (IMO) worth 70k Euros.

[flatinfourth]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yeah, that's the 1981 530 as driven by Jan Lammers (I think) among others. It has been rebuilt with a 525 engine to group 2 regs. Sadly though Group 2 ran centre locks and this doesn't which kind of makes it a replica. Very well put together and a nice car but not (IMO) worth 70k Euros.

Obviously thats an E12 not an E28, unless it's a very rare South African E12/8. Its a bit new to be a 530 unless i'm mistaken, it should be a 528, unless it is an earlier car, which would allow the possibility that it is in fact a 530MLE or M533. those very limited edition cars are more valuable. The 530MLE was a run of a dozen cars handed out to the likes of Alpina. Schnitzer, Tom Walkinshaw and so on, to evaluate the 5 series as a race saloon, with most of the development components forming the basis of the E12 M535 later on, and of course the identical 6 series.

[brown dog]

Originally Posted by flatinfourth

Obviously thats an E12 not an E28, unless it's a very rare South African E12/8.

Damn, I can never tell the two apart!

[BILTEL]

Blimey. somebody seems well informed. I think an E28 2.8 would be eligible for more classic touring car classes as the 3.5 wasn't made in the same amount. You could run with a 24 valve in several championships but you'd be in amongst the modified kit.

Nice pics all the same.

[John Turner]

Yes, that is an E12 - the sloping bootline is the best way of identifying it quickly - lovely car. In the process of selling (I have a buyer) my beloved E12 M535i which I've owned since 1997; still a great road car and will miss her like hell, but needs must! And still ridiculously undervalued for such a rare classic, sadly.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yeah, that's the 1981 530 as driven by Jan Lammers (I think) among others. It has been rebuilt with a 525 engine to group 2 regs. Sadly though Group 2 ran centre locks and this doesn't which kind of makes it a replica. Very well put together and a nice car but not (IMO) worth 70k Euros.

Just to correct my post. It was the Juma car as run in '79 to '81. Eddie Joosen was one of the peddlars.

[brown dog]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yeah, that's the 1981 530 as driven by Jan Lammers (I think) among others. It has been rebuilt with a 525 engine to group 2 regs. Sadly though Group 2 ran centre locks and this doesn't which kind of makes it a replica. Very well put together and a nice car but not (IMO) worth 70k Euros.

According to the blurb on the car for sale, Juma built new cars each year from 77,78,79 and 80 for Spa, this being the last built. Any pics I have found of the Gp.2 car show bolt on wheels, not centrelocks. The Gp.A (E28) pics I have found all show the car with centrelocks. A bit harsh to call it a replica based on that?

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry not just on that. The fact it doesn't have its original mechanicals (although I realise it happened in period) means that it is not the original car. So, in my opinion it is a replica. Not sure but did it race as a group 2?

By the way i is very well put together.

[brown dog]

Okay fair enough, we have different opinions on what a replica is, I accept that

Being a 1981 built car that would indicate it was a Gp.2 car (at least when it was first raced) The blurb also says the car is to Gp.2 specs. although the engine obviously isn't as you have stated, being a 3.5 on triple webers.

I had a good nosey at it, and it was beautifully presented.

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm. I think it ran as a Gp1b car at Spa. At least that was what it was originally presented as and is what can be viewed on race cars direct and Frank De Yong's site. In which case it was a 530i. I gave it some serious thought but have plumped for something else. When this first came up there was a white 530i also for sale which had continuous history from 1979. It ran three(?) times at Spa failing to finish each time. In fact I think the jump cars were the most successful BMW of the era. However the white car was significantly less money. I think it has sold now.

I was looking in connection with the JD CLASSICS series so the jump car would have required returning to its as raced spec.

[flatinfourth]

Originally Posted by brown dog

Okay fair enough, we have different opinions on what a replica is, I accept that

Being a 1981 built car that would indicate it was a Gp.2 car (at least when it was first raced) The blurb also says the car is to Gp.2 specs. although the engine obviously isn't as you have stated, being a 3.5 on triple webers.

I had a good nosey at it, and it was beautifully presented.

Just to clarify, was it run at the start as a 3.5? the only road model available like that at the time was the five flagship M535. I have had a pair of E12 M535is, and it was made clear to me some years ago that i would not be able to run with an engine any larger than a 3.0 as there is apparently no period race history outside South Africa (where i'm told the E12 wiped the floor until the RX7 arrived)

I have to agree that the E12 M535 is without doubt underrated, and very undervalued. it is probably the finest four door driver's car from the period, fabulously quick in standard form as the engine was revvier than the later version, matched well to the dogleg and LSD better than the E28 version, and very nimble indeed. perhaps the last of the great four-wheel-drift saloons.

[Paul D]

There was an orange E28 used to race in the NW Sports & Saloons series about ten years ago. It was nicely built and ran with large arches and, I think, an E34 3.8 pushing over 400 horses - it was quick I seem to remember! I seem to remember seeing it advertised for sale a few years back - not sure where it ended up or what became of it after that.

I have an E28 M535i that I've been toying with the idea of racing for quite a few years now - it's part-prepped, cage fitted, etc - but that's as far as I've got with it due to racing other stuff in the meantime. Have thought it would make a good car for something like the six hours: powerful, unstressed (so, hopefully, reliable) engine with enough poke to be 'entertaining'; some decent stuff fitted as standard (CR dog-leg 'box, LSD, etc); cheap as chips (at least, they were when I bought mine - prices for nice ones are on the up nowadays); and finally, still plenty of lesser E28s around for peanuts (which share many mechanicals and most body panels), to provide cheap bits when you bend it! What's not to like?

I'm sure there's a few places you can race one these days too, apart from the six hours. Future Classics springs to mind for starters...

[Peter Mallett]

In '79 to '81 the Juma team car ran (if it is the same car) as a 530i at the Spa 24hrs.

[flatinfourth]

Originally Posted by Paul D

There was an orange E28 used to race in the NW Sports & Saloons series about ten years ago. It was nicely built and ran with large arches and, I think, an E34 3.8 pushing over 400 horses - it was quick I seem to remember! I seem to remember seeing it advertised for sale a few years back - not sure where it ended up or what became of it after that.

I think that would have been Chris Randall's car, again not sure where it is now, think it had a big accident. A 3.8 engine is good for 360bhp with just the chip unlocked, a very cheap 360bhp indeed! However it gets rather more expensive to get up there with a historic legal 12 valve 3.5, but boiy do they sound good! Having stood on the pit wall at Spa with the E9 coupes going round unsilenced... nothing quite like it

[rallycrosscraig]

Couple of pics here

http://www.zaprace.com/orange.htm

[chunterer]

Quick refresher.
For Group 1 and 2, the 530/530i model was homologated. For Group A it was the 528i

No other '5' was homologated in Europe to the best of my knowledge.

[flatinfourth]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Quick refresher.
For Group 1 and 2, the 530/530i model was homologated. For Group A it was the 528i

No other '5' was homologated in Europe to the best of my knowledge.

Certainly that is my understanding.
Is it the case now though that if one examines the various historic saloon and road sports series, that one would only find cars that raced in period specification in europe under FIA papers, as a general precedent?
I am very aware as someone who has run a TVR Griffith 200 for a client, whilst observing other such cars, that it is possible, if unchecked, for a car that wasn't really around much in period to potentially attempt to rewrite history if allowed.

I just think it would be rather fun to have a period defined race that allows those vehicles that raced in particular championships across the world to be brought together, as long as the mass production build quantities and a good class structure define the groups.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by flatinfourth

Certainly that is my understanding.
Is it the case now though that if one examines the various historic saloon and road sports series, that one would only find cars that raced in period specification in europe under FIA papers, as a general precedent?
I am very aware as someone who has run a TVR Griffith 200 for a client, whilst observing other such cars, that it is possible, if unchecked, for a car that wasn't really around much in period to potentially attempt to rewrite history if allowed.

I just think it would be rather fun to have a period defined race that allows those vehicles that raced in particular championships across the world to be brought together, as long as the mass production build quantities and a good class structure define the groups.

I believe the MRL's Touring car trophy series (was JD classics) aims for precisely that environment.

[Alex E]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Quick refresher.
For Group 1 and 2, the 530/530i model was homologated. For Group A it was the 528i

No other '5' was homologated in Europe to the best of my knowledge.

There were very few Group `2` 5 series, and not many more 6 searies, built because all the time the CSL homologation was still valid it was the better option. When the CSL Homologation expired it was known that Group A was coming, so no special homologation was done. They probably would never have existed at all if it wasn`t for the fact that all the mechanical components from the old CSL went staight into the E12 5 series and ealy 6 series bosyshells (.which shared the same floorplan etc...) The `81 ETCC winning 635 consisted of mostly factory CSL parts from 1973-5.

The Group 1 530i was based on the US version, something to do with the engine spec / compression ratio I think.

Likewise the E28 5 series & post `82 6 series shared the same floorplan, so all the Gp A homologation was concentrated on the 635.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Quick refresher.
For Group 1 and 2, the 530/530i model was homologated. For Group A it was the 528i

No other '5' was homologated in Europe to the best of my knowledge.

Just having a read through this thread & am a bit confused, as the M535 was Homologated in Gp2 in 1981. So is this only about the standard models .

[Alex E]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Just having a read through this thread & am a bit confused, as the M535 was Homologated in Gp2 in 1981. So is this only about the standard models .

It is a bit strange that they bothered to Homologated an M535i that late when by the end of `81 it would be useless. To my knowledge only one serious Gp 2 535 was built, and that was only because the builder had a damaged Gp 2 CSL lying around.

Many people seem to think the M535 was a bit special, in fact it was just a parts-bin special. Apart from the spoilers everything else, engine, box, diff, suspension, etc...came from the standard 635.

[flatinfourth]

Originally Posted by Alex E

It is a bit strange that they bothered to Homologated an M535i that late when by the end of `81 it would be useless. To my knowledge only one serious Gp 2 535 was built, and that was only because the builder had a damaged Gp 2 CSL lying around.

Many people seem to think the M535 was a bit special, in fact it was just a parts-bin special. Apart from the spoilers everything else, engine, box, diff, suspension, etc...came from the standard 635.

Not quite true that. The E12M535 and the 6 both benefitted from the 530MLE and M533 race development, which inevitably took the best of the E9 efforts, it was the 5 series that ran alongside the E9 through the racing successes in the mid seventies, the 6 being a relatively lardy E9 replacement built on the 5 series platform. BMW made sure that the 5 was kept in the shadows as it caused them embarrassing situations with road testers finding the hot saloon quicker, on track also. Inevitably there is parts sharing going on, which is now sadly resulting in M535 drivetrains being retrofitted into E9s
.

[Alex E]

Originally Posted by flatinfourth

Not quite true that. The E12M535 and the 6 both benefitted from the 530MLE and M533 race development, which inevitably took the best of the E9 efforts, it was the 5 series that ran alongside the E9 through the racing successes in the mid seventies, the 6 being a relatively lardy E9 replacement built on the 5 series platform. BMW made sure that the 5 was kept in the shadows as it caused them embarrassing situations with road testers finding the hot saloon quicker, on track also. Inevitably there is parts sharing going on, which is now sadly resulting in M535 drivetrains being retrofitted into E9s
.

What is a 530 MLE and an M533 ? Never heard of either ?

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Alex E

What is a 530 MLE and an M533 ? Never heard of either ?

They were, I'm fairly sure, quite rare E12 models never sold in the UK. There was an E12 M535i available in the UK (but very rare - only around 400 sold here?), and after that, the biggest engine available to UK buyers was the 528i.

But getting back on-topic with the E28, I think it's a tad unfair to call the M535i a parts-bin special. Whilst undoubtedly everything that came as standard equipment on an M535i was also available on the 635, in reality it was extremely rare to find a 635 fitted with all the stuff that was standard on a manual M535i - such as CR dog-leg 'box, LSD, M-tec suspension, etc.

The reality was that most 635's were autos, and of the few manuals around, I seem to remember that most were fitted with the standard (non dog-leg) overdrive 'box, and few had the LSD. Very few came with everything that an M535i had as standard. Thus I would say that a manual M535i was much more of a driver's car than most 'sixes'.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Alex E

The Group 1 530i was based on the US version, something to do with the engine spec / compression ratio I think.

Ah thanks for that. The Ad for the White car actually quoted the US spec, now I know why. Oddly enough it also applies to certain other marques in Grp 1.

Originally Posted by chunterer

I believe the MRL's Touring car trophy series (was JD classics) aims for precisely that environment.

Yup.