Ricciardo vs Vergne ( vs Raikkonen)

[OZ_HCR32]

I am going to give this thread a bump as this is turning into a real interesting battle.

I cant really recall a race where either of them have had a clean run. Each time Dan strings together a good weekend Vergne has a hiccup and vice versa. They both are getting some great results and with James Key doing the business with the car they are set for a good showing at the end of the year.

Right now I think you have to give it to Dan still for pace but Vergne looks good in races and the last few races has fixed hjis lack of qualifying speed.

[p-matt]

I definitely think that JEV has been more impressive that Dan over the last year and a bit. Besides qualifying in Bahrain '12 and China this year, I can't think of a weekend where Dan looked like a future Red Bull driver. He's been very solid and consistent but just not spectacular enough to make the step up. Much like a better version of Buemi IMO.

JEV might have struggled in qualifying but his race pace has been very strong. He has excelled in difficult and mixed conditions since he made his debut. Over the last few races he's shown signs of stringing together complete weekends, and that will be critical in the battle between them.

Neither man has shown that they would be better than Webber right now, or Kimi for next year. I hope that both continue in STR for next year, but I can't see it with Felix da Costa's shadow looming large.

[Razzzor]

Yeah I hope they both stay in F1 for a few more years as well, especially JEV, I think he has more potential, but they are close. JEV needs to sort his qualifying out.

Antonio's shares must be going down slightly now that he's not cleaning up in WSR this year like he was expected to do.

[bella]

he was only expected to do so by people who never watch the series. or any racing series apart from f1 for that matter.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bella

he was only expected to do so by people who never watch the series. or any racing series apart from f1 for that matter.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by bella

he was only expected to do so by people who never watch the series. or any racing series apart from f1 for that matter.

Lol yep I haven't been watching WSR this year since it's not televised here and finding a stream is a pain, only keeping up with it through the website.

[bella]

don't worry, it's barely televised in europe this year too, that's why finding a stream is a pain

he has admitted himself that he's been overdriving and there's been a couple of moments when the team have let him down as well, but when nobody makes any mistakes and everyone pulls their fingers out, he's on it and winning. magnussen has had him beaten on everything this year from pace to control and sensible driving and to be fair a couple of the others have too.

i think hes in a different position to where vergne and ricciardo were though. they seemed to be in with a lot more chance of a f1 seat than he is now. vergne and ricciardo seem to keep each other relatively honest, and you can't really pick one over the other conclusively. of course, when str were in that position they fired both drivers, but there's no-one really in the position to take up their drives next season...

[p-matt]

Originally Posted by bella

he was only expected to do so by people who never watch the series. or any racing series apart from f1 for that matter.

Sorry, don't agree with you at all Bella. Pretty much all motorsport journalists and WSR commentators expected Antonio to dominate.

[MichaelH]

I've never got the fact that Ricciardo seemed so favoured in the press etc. I think people wrote Vergne off because of his qualifying issues but even then it was never a pace thing - quite often JEV would be quicker in two of the three sectors then blow it completely in the third, it was about making mistakes under pressure rather than being slower. Even then in the races he would usually make up for it. Now he seems to be growing in confidence generally, the qualifying laps are coming and he's proving he can outpace Ricciardo over a single lap and completely annihilate him over a race distance. Vergne looks like a proper STR o me and keep performing on the level he has been and he should be a shoo-in for Webber's seat. If he gets it or not.

Ricciardo is losing this one increasingly I think. Always wonder why he seems to get all the good publicity, maybe it's a personality thing? He's the amiable Aussie, Vergne the shy and quiet ie "brooding" Frenchman.

[cds_uk]

The trouble as far as I can see it is this, neither of them is dominant, Red Bull has all the data it needs on them both after more or less a season and a half and the driver being linked with Webbers seat is Kimi, they are both good solid drivers, neither of them seems to be a world beater.

[Born Racer]

The problem they've got is that, like Buemi and Alguersuari before them, the closeness and lack of consistent performances means that either of them might have difficulty convincing Red Bull they are in any way standout.

[OZ_HCR32]

Interesting that Allen and Brundle and others all say Dan is doing the better job. I read on teh JA site the other day that Dan has him at 20-7 in quali. Based on words of Marko he seems to suggest that if a driver is missing pace in quali, the correct head space, race pace then Red Bull drop them. Now with Vergne they obviously dont think its an ability thing and with all the info at hand they feel he can bridge it and work with him.

It will be interesting to see who they chose. Despite Vergne having some collissions and poor qualifying he does seem to thread the needle in races. Dan less so..

I think Horner hit the nail on the head that neither this year have had car problem free weekends this year over a race weekend and outside influences have affected one of the teams cars over a weekend. I know Dan lost points two races in a row at the end of last year at Monza etc with car failures late in the race when in the points. He had his car fail on him at a few GPs early this year. Jev likewise has had problems.

I think at the end of the day RBR will look to Kimi and Kimi will want a genuine title contender where he can win it and not be in the hunt waiting for circumstances to favour him as is the case at Lotus

[bella]

Originally Posted by p-matt

Sorry, don't agree with you at all Bella. Pretty much all motorsport journalists and WSR commentators expected Antonio to dominate.

then they were being spectacularly forgetful, because at the time they were all saying he was doing so well because he had no pressure to perform to a particular level.

i can only think of 4 or 5 well-published journalists in various languages who are at all the races, so i'd be interested to know which ones you're talking about.

[OZ_HCR32]

Have to give this one clearly to Dan. Got quali right. An average start but had great race pace and made some nice moves when he had to....had two poor stops that hurt his track position and like Kimi got hung out to dry with no tyres under the last pace car. Was looking at a strong top 6 finish otherwise.

Meanwhile Jev made a mistake in quali and looked to be trying to go long and two stop...tyre letting go just compounded another bad week for him

Interesting that James Allen got his prediction for the weekend right. He seemed to think that Dan will go better on the high speed flowing "traditional" circuits where Jev has an advantage in the slow stuff so does better at places like Monaco and Canada.

Interesting to see how this plays out....but at the moment Dan is easily getting the job done in quali. Is racing cleanly without any silly overtake moves. Rather good, clean racing.

VS JEV who still seems to have that question mark over him that he looks like has more pace over a race but just needs to get quali sorted and stop clipping his front wing on things....

[FAS33]

ricciardo is one funny guy lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbfBuUGz0c

obviously being aussie I'm going to be biased and say that ricciardo will be the one moving forward next year imo, but the last 2 races in Monaco and Canada jean had it over dan there, and finishing 6th was an awesome performance. and then the redbull seat talk came up before Silverstone, when Redbull decided not to renew Webber's contract. so now it's obvious that one of the two Toro Rosso's drivers will be getting the seat next year, and now the pressure's on to perform. I think before years end, they'll have decided who that'll be.

I doubt Kimi will get the nod, whats the point of Toro Rosso racing, if they can't get one of their own development drivers into the mother team, instead opting for an outsider? I don't see that happening. Belgian race is in a few weeks time, a race vergne is usually strong at, so he's still in it. may the best driver win the prized seat of pairing up with Vettel next year.

[shiny side up!]

Originally Posted by FAS33

I doubt Kimi will get the nod, whats the point of Toro Rosso racing, if they can't get one of their own development drivers into the mother team, instead opting for an outsider? I don't see that happening.

RBR is a giant marketing exercise, first and foremost. Kimi will sell a lot more fizzy drinks for 'ol Dietrich than some Italian-sounding Aussie will.

[FAS33]

I doubt it..

Ricciardo = funny, young and one of the most likeable guys in the paddock, very quick driver too.

Raikonnen = grumpy, getting older, still obviously very quick, but has an attitude of a brick wall.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

That's WHY people love Raikkonen. He's so wooden it's only amusing when he doesn't want to talk and so direct it's god damn beautiful when he wants to. Besides, Red Bull marketing has always had a rebellious streak.

That aside, Raikkonen's quite simply a better driver. Both Toro Rosso drivers are quality material but come on, let's not forget who we're comparing them to. So far Ricciardo has proven he can drive faster when someone waves a contract under his nose. But if they don't want to rock the boat, sure he could make it. Would be RB's own version of Massa.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by shiny side up!

RBR is a giant marketing exercise, first and foremost. Kimi will sell a lot more fizzy drinks for 'ol Dietrich than some Italian-sounding Aussie will.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

That's WHY people love Raikkonen. He's so wooden it's only amusing when he doesn't want to talk and so direct it's god damn beautiful when he wants to. Besides, Red Bull marketing has always had a rebellious streak.

That aside, Raikkonen's quite simply a better driver. Both Toro Rosso drivers are quality material but come on, let's not forget who we're comparing them to. So far Ricciardo has proven he can drive faster when someone waves a contract under his nose. But if they don't want to rock the boat, sure he could make it. Would be RB's own version of Massa.

he's definalty not quicker then the 3 time world champion that's for sure.

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by FAS33

he's definalty not quicker then the 3 time world champion that's for sure.

Too soon to be sure of that IMO, we won't know until next year.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

Too soon to be sure of that IMO, we won't know until next year.

imo Raikonen is not even in the same stratosphere as Vettel. don't forget Ricciardo beat Vettel in the same car too when they were qualifying for the young drivers test. Ricciardo for 2014 RedBull Seat, would be a cheaper option for RB too, plus Dan does better Interviews.

[Rick]

20 - 7 or whatever it is now in Q and the slower bloke should get the best seat in F1? Gotta be kidding!
Plenty of JEV's better races have been helped by a truck load of brand new tyres he never needed in Qualifying. STR made a habit of splitting strategies that also made it very difficult to compare races. Combine that with the number of issues and pit dramas and crap strategy calls they both have had and Qualifying is still the yardstick. No comparison.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

That aside, Raikkonen's quite simply a better driver. Both Toro Rosso drivers are quality material but come on, let's not forget who we're comparing them to. So far Ricciardo has proven he can drive faster when someone waves a contract under his nose. But if they don't want to rock the boat, sure he could make it. Would be RB's own version of Massa.

Since Massa beat Kimi as teammates, what would that make Raikkonen?

We have very little to compare Kimi to Ricciardo with (and Vergne for that matter). Red Bull have far more data to use, and in a perfect world they will pick the driver that they feel will do a better job for their team. Unfortunately in the real world salary, image and marketing value are also big considerations, but I think that sort of thing will only be used to decide the seat if both drivers are closely matched in the eyes of the RB evaluators.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Beryl

Since Massa beat Kimi as teammates, what would that make Raikkonen?

We have very little to compare Kimi to Ricciardo with (and Vergne for that matter). Red Bull have far more data to use, and in a perfect world they will pick the driver that they feel will do a better job for their team. Unfortunately in the real world salary, image and marketing value are also big considerations, but I think that sort of thing will only be used to decide the seat if both drivers are closely matched in the eyes of the RB evaluators.

Massa ain't a bad driver but he has too many bad days to ever be an effective threat to Alonso. Kimi has been in performance slumps before in his career but has shown multiple times he can perform consistently at a high level over a whole season. To my memory Massa has never quite managed that, and it cost him the chance to be a world champion.