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Old 9 Aug 2013, 06:46 (Ref:3287504)   #51
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Lagunaseca_4life should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLagunaseca_4life should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
An engine can run past 14,7:1 with out detonating, running cooler intake charges will have more air and would be good for more fuel to make more power.not adding fuel would lean it out and cause a drop in performance to save fuel but eventually may cause damage dueto higher cylinder operating temps.im not sure if they would really want that or if they would add components to control that such effect.single or twin turbos I wouldn't think would affect charge temps, the efficientcy of the single or dual charge air coolers is what would ultamately affect the air charge temps.
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Old 12 Aug 2013, 20:55 (Ref:3288996)   #52
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there are a number of factors that all contribute, with a single turbo one of the big benefits is the reduction in exhaust back-pressure, so its less restrictive and free'r flowing for the hot exhaust gas, this in turn creates a great deal less exhaust pressure and crucially less heat, so less heat conducted into the intake side, the intake air is more dense at a lower temperature, so cylinder filling is far more efficient and you can perform the same amount of engine work at a lower crankshaft RPM.......really the holy grail of saving fuel is reducing the cranks rpm.......friction increases at the square of rotary speed.........the only bummer being a single turbo is quite laggy, but that can be dealt with by a number of anti-lag tricks and technologies now commonly available.
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Old 12 Aug 2013, 20:59 (Ref:3288997)   #53
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A big single is laggy, but, when you keep the car in the powerband...

Twins seem cool and all, but are actually pretty inefficient. On a V10, sure, you have 5 cylinders for each turbo, on a V6? Three, then you need bigger displacement to spin the damn thing...

Point is, a big single turbo just works better on a small engine. Anti-Lag is great for the spectators too. Usually some good fire, and great noise..
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Old 12 Aug 2013, 21:25 (Ref:3289010)   #54
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Single turbos aren't as bad lag wise as they used to be. A road car, but the Mercedes A45AMG is relatively lag free and it has a single turbo. Different applications, but as you say keep it in the rev band and who cares.
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 03:33 (Ref:3289092)   #55
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Lagunaseca_4life should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLagunaseca_4life should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just throw some vanes around the turbine with the ability to variably control them.effectivly allowing a big turbo to act like a small turbo on command.could also go with compound turbos or twin charge(two compressors on the same turbine shaft)turbo if the regs allow em. Are vgt's still going to be banned?
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 05:29 (Ref:3289106)   #56
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Yes they will be banned. This is what Audi is running as we speak with the single turbo and VTG.
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 05:44 (Ref:3289110)   #57
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It amazes me how diesels were (or currently are) allowed larger engines. I guess if it were the opposite, petrol engines would be even less fuel efficient?
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 06:41 (Ref:3289120)   #58
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Presumably lag would be less of an issue with the hybrid systems to pick up the slack but HPD won't be offering a hybrid system in '14.
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 14:27 (Ref:3289288)   #59
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well....traction-motor hybrid systems to one side for a mo..........HPD appear to have positioned the turbo in the identical position as mandated by the 2014 F1 turbo regulations.......this would then allow them to use the motor-generator unit that will be fitted under the air-box, in the middle of the engines V-angle, soon to be pioneered by the Honda F1 team, this will both spin up the turbo for anti-lag (boost on demand), and also generate a bit of power when running steady state.......dont get too excited about the latter, as the amount of energy generated is almost not worth the effort......but the ability to boost on demand in order to keep the engine rpm as low as possible and save a load of fuel, now thats well worth having.......i'm only using my intuition based on the HPD LMP1 turbo position images........but it looks like they are preparing to possibly use the F1 E-booster technology at some point in time.

this is basically another way to do what audi tried to do with their air-reservoir system recently banned.

But really this is very "road relevant" and its what all OEM's are now doing.......just trust me on that one :-)
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 14:35 (Ref:3289289)   #60
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Actually, it might be ... a small petrol engine with a big turbo, low back pressure, always at speed because of hybrid power ... the engine could always run near max-efficient RPM and the turbo would always be on, regardless of engine revs or exhaust flow + tremendous overall efficiency.

No reason that wouldn't be great in a small mass-produced road car.

And that is Exactly why they are doing it, I am sure.

Last edited by Maelochs; 13 Aug 2013 at 14:45.
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 17:12 (Ref:3289348)   #61
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Single turbos........................but as you say keep it in the rev band and who cares.
May I point out that of all circuit racing disciplines, in multi-class racing you have the least chance to keep it in the rev band, with having to adjust your driving to traffic all the time. That's much less of an issue in F1 where races are just extended qualifying runs with more 'passing' than overtaking.
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Old 13 Aug 2013, 18:30 (Ref:3289381)   #62
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I've done a quite deep research in the past year about the possible 2014 LM engines, as i've examined which one can be a possible winner according to the new regs. Three engines were simulated and tuned on computer:
- 3,4 l, V8, NA petrol based on today LMP1 petrol engine
- 3,7 l, V6, TD, monoturbo, based on Audi R18's engine
- 1,6 l, V6, monoturbo petrol, based on future F1 engine

The results were interesting... Best one (without hybrid aid) was the... V8 NA petrol! Second: TD, and then came far-far away the 1,6 l F1.

Petrols: V8 had better torque and power than the V6, and also better fuel consumption. The main reason for the lower consumption is the higher CR. Little turbo engine can have about half the friction losses as the big one (even at the same rpm!), but you need to push too much air in it to reach the same power level. This means really so much, that engine reaches the limits of possible long term operation, and also the limits of the fuel itself (burning process). Not in temperature, but rather in peak pressure. So it was impossible to turbocharge even more... But BSFC was always higher, with 4-10%, due to the lower CR. Porsche RS Spyder had CR of 15:1 (i've simulated an engine of 14:1, but there was space to increase this a little bit, as i haven't reached the limits mentioned earlier), but TP eninge reached the limits at 9,4:1. 1,6 l V6 suits well for future F1 regs, but doesn't seems ok for LM.
Diesel: very-very good, the gap between the V8 and this one was very little. Also, i have to say that for the spirit of the future regs, this one fits the best. However, contrary today when TD engines have a little advantage from the regs, in the future TDs have to be held back! That what you can see in the "technology factors" in the regs, these one equalize them to the level of the petrol engines. Without them, diesels would be unbeatable at LM in the future, as they are more efficient.
And i have to say the difference between V8 and TD was very-very low, they are almost equal. So regulation seems almost perfect, have to say ACO did a very great job.
I didn't simulated petrols between that two one. Less NA engine, or a bigger TC (with not so high TC pressure) can be interesting, but for me it seems that NA engines will have always advantages over TC engines, when efficiency is the key factor.


Three another thoughts:
1. One single turbo is now competitive, because with the downsizing of the engines they need to suck less air in. With 4l engines or even bigger one, they would still use two turbos.
2. As i heard already car manufacturers realised the same consumption problem as i explained. Everybody did downsizing and TC, but now they see that probably it wasn't the right step... (it's only valid for petrol engines diesels neeeeed turbo)
3. 14,7 fuel ratio is absolutely theoretic at race cars. The mixture is lot denser (somewhere at 13:1) to reach higher performance. But in the future it must change to fit to the efficiency requirements.
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Old 14 Aug 2013, 16:58 (Ref:3289774)   #63
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Great sim, repa! Can you make it 4.0 - 4.5 L V6 and put twin turbo (one for each block of 3 cyl.) and run the pressure at 4 bar? It will be interesting to see how that compares to your current results...
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Old 14 Aug 2013, 17:02 (Ref:3289775)   #64
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Any news about the Judd GV4 ? If it can be used , which Im sure it can be , It will have to have FSI for economy .

Should be a decent reliable engine by now .
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Old 14 Aug 2013, 20:03 (Ref:3289860)   #65
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Don't be surprise that the new F1 1.6L V6 Turbo engines(HPD 2.2t) go axial turbine with compound compressor.

That will miss up all those graphs everybody been working on what engine is the best!

The father of the new F1 engine rules(Gilles Simon)was whispering that was the way to go to make the most power with the least fuel.

The axial turbine will not have the air-flow problems(exhaust gas restrictions) of a radial turbine and a compound compressor(multi-stage) solves the problem of over-speed of the compressor.(bottomline a much bigger powerband and much less energy lost)

Its kinda like the WW2 aircraft piston engines at the end of War with a 4-speed,3-stage compressor.They could fly circles around the early 1-speed to two speed with one-stage compressors and turbochargers!!!

The turbocharger needs to catch up to the gas turbine in tech and it looks like the new rules in P1 and F1(and GREEN LAWS) is going to force the auto/turbo manufactures to do that!
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 14:33 (Ref:3291006)   #66
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New diesel hybrid from France - Mecachrome according Motor-Total.com : http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-13081703.html
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 16:48 (Ref:3291028)   #67
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New diesel hybrid from France - Mecachrome according Motor-Total.com : http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-13081703.html

French diesel , Henri Pescarolo , Dome P1 ..... have I got something here ?
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 16:55 (Ref:3291033)   #68
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On another note now that fuel flow is being limited to control HP what size fuel tanks are the teams able to use? If they equalize the fuel tank size then it is still advantage diesel right? And if they don't equalize the fuel tanks then it is still advantage diesel right? Because now the diesel won't have to carry the extra fuel weight. So the diesels are either lighter than the petrols or they can go further on a tank of fuel. Is that what will happen?
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 17:24 (Ref:3291040)   #69
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New diesel hybrid from France - Mecachrome according Motor-Total.com : http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-13081703.html
This appears to be the Peugeot 908 engine? I wasn't aware that engine was actually built by Mecachrome until now.

Wonder if Mecachrome bought the rights to the engine back from Peugeot. Great to see them repurpose the engine for privateers.
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 17:53 (Ref:3291046)   #70
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On another note now that fuel flow is being limited to control HP what size fuel tanks are the teams able to use? If they equalize the fuel tank size then it is still advantage diesel right? And if they don't equalize the fuel tanks then it is still advantage diesel right? Because now the diesel won't have to carry the extra fuel weight. So the diesels are either lighter than the petrols or they can go further on a tank of fuel. Is that what will happen?
The last draft version of the 2014 tech regs I saw had
Petrol: 65.6L
Diesel: 54.3L
These capacities are regardless of allowed fuel flow rate, which is in turn a function of how powerful a hybrid system the car has. More hybrid power = less fuel flow rate.
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 17:57 (Ref:3291047)   #71
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This appears to be the Peugeot 908 engine? I wasn't aware that engine was actually built by Mecachrome until now.

Wonder if Mecachrome bought the rights to the engine back from Peugeot. Great to see them repurpose the engine for privateers.
I don't read German, but it appears to say 5.5L V10.
The Peugeot was a 5.5L V12... or at least I thought it was.

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Old 17 Aug 2013, 18:04 (Ref:3291050)   #72
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I don't read German, but it appears to say 5.5L V10.
The Peugeot was a 5.5L V12... or at least I thought it was.

I think there may have been a mistake in the article, from the translation it's suggesting that Peugeot ran a 5.5L V10.


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Arguably the most prominent project, which was promoted several years ago by D2T, the 5.5-liter V10 turbodiesel, the anschob the Peugeot 908 Hdi FAP applies. The new LMP1 engine appeared based on that Peugeot engine.
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 19:11 (Ref:3291068)   #73
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The 908 HDi 5.5L V12 turbodiesel engine was projected even before peugeot sport started the development of the car. Mecachrome in late '90 obtained the license to supply the f1 3.0 V10 renault engine to williams, after the official retirment of the french manufacturer at the end of 1997 season. If the article is about the former 908HDi engine, very likely mecachrome obtained the license. Anyway the peugeot 5.5 V12 was bigger and terribly heavy (according to forza motorsport games, the 908HDi had more than 60% of weight on rear) is hard to insert this kind of engine inside a chassis that hasn't been projected on purpose.
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 19:23 (Ref:3291072)   #74
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The article says the new motor isn't based on the old Peugeot V12, only that Mecachrome has experience building and developing P1 engines, in its incarnation as TEOS, a joint venture between Mecachrome and Antriebsentwickler D2T.
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Old 17 Aug 2013, 20:59 (Ref:3291095)   #75
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May I point out that of all circuit racing disciplines, in multi-class racing you have the least chance to keep it in the rev band, with having to adjust your driving to traffic all the time. That's much less of an issue in F1 where races are just extended qualifying runs with more 'passing' than overtaking.
Good point, driveability does help you avoid those Ferrari GTs
You can compensate with gears, but these are limited too.

It is a lot better than the old ads with turbos, but there is still no substitute for cc.
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