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Old 15 Oct 2017, 06:05 (Ref:3774285)   #51
Kempi
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Okay, I was trying to give you a chance. I even had typed a reply like yours in my post before but deleted it before posting. You blew it, thank you. You just confirmed that you are the fanboy I thought you were. Makes ignoring your posts easier from now on.
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Old 15 Oct 2017, 06:48 (Ref:3774289)   #52
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so...


Hamilton is by far a better driver than Vettel.
It is true that a picture can paint a thousand words. But it is also true that some people will only see what they are prepared to accept and will write a thousand words to interpret a picture their way (didn't think you are a fan of long posts by the way?)

The words that picture tells me are that the cars are both competitive. Vettel drove his car to better results early season, and now Hamilton is taking advantage of Ferrari's problems.
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Old 15 Oct 2017, 08:14 (Ref:3774297)   #53
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Vettel is so much better than everyone else that there's absolutely no way anyone could disagree with me. This is a fact, and I totally did not choose an image (which says a thousand words) that specifically proves my point.
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Old 15 Oct 2017, 10:05 (Ref:3774311)   #54
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loon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridloon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
what's the point of comparing one driver against another anyway?
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Old 15 Oct 2017, 10:19 (Ref:3774313)   #55
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so...



Hamilton is by far a better driver than Vettel. If you cannot acknowledge that then you simply must have your head up your sphincter ani externus. Yet... Vettel was leading the championship all the way until Belgium. But then Ferrari made good gains from Belgium to Italy to be almost level. Then in Singapore, Malaysia and Japan, reliability (not outright speed/performance) let Ferrari down. So apart from the flash of Belgium, it was unreliability issues with Ferrari that has given Mercedes the WDC lead.
Ferrari did not have unreliability in Singapore, they threw away points by Vettel being too aggressive at the start.
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Old 15 Oct 2017, 16:59 (Ref:3774346)   #56
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
See my post above. My opinion is shared by just a few other people who are not on this forum.


Your source of F1 opinion is "the rest of the forum"??

I'll tell you a little secret, but please.. try to keep it to yourself. When you're watching the next race weekend on your TV, best pull your head out of your arschloch and watch the entire weekend with BOTH eyes open. You'll probably see things most other people see that way. But sorry to say, these people might not be on "the forum".
Many posters on this forum consistently form much more coherent, logical, intelligent opinions than you do, all while showing more respect and class. Your argument boils down to a team that is in constant turmoil, with every leader near the chopping block all the time, that can't even get both it's cars to even make the start every race, with clear quality control issues, that routinely has made blunders on strategy over the last few years, is somehow better than the team that has run like a machine for 4 years, consistently dominating, consistently showing more pace, with an engine other drivers acknowledge can be turned up for qualifying, which is an edge and advantage no other car has, and has produced the last 3 champions... Maybe you need to get your head out your sphincter and realize that ain't roses you're smelling, either. Have a good day
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Old 15 Oct 2017, 22:46 (Ref:3774386)   #57
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Mod note:

OK folks time to quit with the personal attacks and references to body parts. This is a family friendly forum.

There have been some warnings handed out already any more and it'll be full infractions.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 11:26 (Ref:3774469)   #58
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See my post above. My opinion is shared by just a few other people who are not on this forum.
Just for interest sake, may I ask how old you are F1Guy?
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 11:34 (Ref:3774471)   #59
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loon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridloon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I been a motorsport fan all my life because I love racing cars, but have little interest in drivers other than being a helmet poking from a car on a sunday afternoon, I always find it strange and a little pervy how some people invest so much love/hatred towards people they do not and will not ever know
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 12:39 (Ref:3774482)   #60
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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
what makes you think that on overall terms Ferrari as a team and as a car were/are better than Mercedes?
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
See my post above. My opinion is shared by just a few other people who are not on this forum.
I still feel the question hasn't been answered.
The post above Kempi's and the post immediately preceding yours offer no opinion that Ferrari as a team and car is significantly better than Mercedes.

If we assume you are referring to the YouTube link, then what I hear is a montage of commentary clips and a wide range of comments from people who have viewed the video.

Amongst the comments, I struggle to find anyone who backs up your claim that the Ferrari is better than the Mercedes.
The general tone (amongst hundreds of comments) can be summarised:

'ferrari [...] Making an O-K car but never getting the championship'
'Is Mercedes' engine made out of tank armor? That sh*t is bullet proof'
'that is the difference between German Engineering and Italian Engineering '
'the team needs to get there act together if not they fail apparently Mercedes stepped up there game'
'Ferrari and Apple are same . They both give us expectations but disappoint in the end'......
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 12:45 (Ref:3774483)   #61
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Originally Posted by loon View Post
I been a motorsport fan all my life because I love racing cars, but have little interest in drivers other than being a helmet poking from a car on a sunday afternoon, I always find it strange and a little pervy how some people invest so much love/hatred towards people they do not and will not ever know
Some of the driver vs driver threads can be enjoyable as an exercise in ever-increasingly elaborate and contrived arguments over why one driver is better than the other.
People will go to great lengths to formulate an argument over why their driver is the best, and accept the good natured humour in sometimes increasingly ridiculous points being made.
Others can be good to comment on how, as situations develop, a clear 'victor' emerges between the two drivers concerned.

Others though can get a bit depressing, where individuals will attempt to portray their extreme bias as a sensible, well developed argument. When they are called out on something though, or feel that they are struggling to maintain their position with any credibility, they will resort to childish accusations and vain attempts to drag those who counter their position into aggressive and abusive positions. Sadly, this thread is in the latter category sometimes.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 21:42 (Ref:3774568)   #62
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Originally Posted by loon View Post
I been a motorsport fan all my life because I love racing cars, but have little interest in drivers other than being a helmet poking from a car on a sunday afternoon, I always find it strange and a little pervy how some people invest so much love/hatred towards people they do not and will not ever know
You will just love robot car racing!

Seriously though loon, have you ever tried to watch a series where you don't know any of the drivers with the sound turned off?
There is something missing?

Motor racing to me is a whole package, and it is interesting to see how the various performance differentiators work, and it is clear that the driver is still, thankfully, a major performance differentiator.

One of my gripes with the current PU's is that they are black boxes and therefore just unknown quantities or methods, and therefore of little interest. Where does the advantage lie, what are the opposition doing to make up the deficit, who knows?
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 05:33 (Ref:3774602)   #63
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Hamilton is by far a better driver than Vettel. If you cannot acknowledge that then you simply must have your head up your...
Well I can't acknowledge that. I think the two are both great drivers, the main blemish for Vettel was being beaten by Ricciardo in his last year at RB. But then, Hamilton got beat last year by Rosberg and also had Jense outscore him in their years together. I do think Hamilton has developed into a guy that just doesn't make mistakes or off days anymore. It's not often you see him makes mistakes in qualy, hence all his poles.

Seb, still not at that point and prone to doing silly things like wrecking post-race. He'll often stuff up qualifying. But you don't win 4 consecutive titles by being a driver far inferior to another driver that was beaten by his team mate to the title.

The Singapore incident, to be honest he didn't hit Verstappen. He did the Schuey chop but it was Verstappens knee-jerk reaction that ended up causing the big crash.

Both Hamilton and Vettel can do some fantastic on edge laps, probably more so Vettel at taking that car to the limit and beyond. Hamilton just hasn't needed to in recent years. He seems to get the speed out of it without hardly trying. I guess they've just developed that thing around him and poor Bottas can drive as hard as he can but won't do the time at the end of the lap.

At this point in their careers I do think Hamilton has the edge over Vettel, but it's close.

I do wonder what sort of lead Ferrari would have in the title race if Alonso was in the team.

I'd love to see Verstappen team mate to either one of them, see if he can beat them.
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 07:39 (Ref:3774607)   #64
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think that is a quite fitting description. Hamilton has matured tremendously, maybe even just because Rosberg beat him last year.

There are less reports about his off-track behavior (for whatever reasons) and he simply delivers on track. The car makes it easy for him but he still needs to deliver (just as Vettel in 2010-2013). Currently Hamilton is better than Vettel because he currently is better at taking advantage of weak performances of his title rival.
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 07:55 (Ref:3774609)   #65
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Hamilton was only outscored by Jenson once, in 2011, IIRC
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 09:58 (Ref:3774635)   #66
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A recent BBC podcast had a contribution from Mercedes who said that this year, Hamilton has worked harder behind the scenes than ever before. They also said that he was more open in his feedback - possibly due to having a teammate working with him. Perhaps his step up is down to a lack of challenge from his teammate?
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 12:32 (Ref:3774655)   #67
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Who knows? All I know is it seems to have helped him on track
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 17:39 (Ref:3774693)   #68
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loon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridloon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
On reflection I was not 100% honest about my appreciation of drivers, I was indeed delighted when Marco Apicella became all japan champion back in 94, porco spino!!
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 19:03 (Ref:3774708)   #69
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Hamilton was only outscored by Jenson once, in 2011, IIRC
Collectively over three years they shared at McLaren, JB scored more points than LH.

2010 JB=214 LH=240
2011 JB=270 LH=227
2012 JB=188 LH=190

Total JB=672 LH=657
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 19:20 (Ref:3774709)   #70
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The main conclusion from that for me is that Button is a fine peddler. I see it that way rather than a slight on Hamilton.
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 19:23 (Ref:3774711)   #71
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The main conclusion from that for me is that Button is a fine peddler. I see it that way rather than a slight on Hamilton.
Just as a comparison, would you rate Button at that time better or worse than Ricciardo now/the year he was teammates with Vettel?

Btw, I apologize for my role in lowering the discourse. I should not have stooped to others' levels.
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 19:56 (Ref:3774715)   #72
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Just as a comparison, would you rate Button at that time better or worse than Ricciardo now/the year he was teammates with Vettel?
I don't know really.
Although maybe the end conclusion is that Ocon is better than both the subjects of this thread
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Old 18 Oct 2017, 00:08 (Ref:3774762)   #73
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Just as a comparison, would you rate Button at that time better or worse than Ricciardo now/the year he was teammates with Vettel?

Btw, I apologize for my role in lowering the discourse. I should not have stooped to others' levels.
Vettel did have about sixty million ($60M) reasons to make sure that he could invoke his performance clause and go to Ferrari, so perhaps his performance deficit to Danni Ricc is not as significant as it may seem.

What happens when you use lawyers to trap people in employment contracts.
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Old 18 Oct 2017, 12:29 (Ref:3774843)   #74
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Button was very good at being gentle on his car, but Lewis could get more out of a car that was struggling. Especially in 2012. Button had a narrow operating window
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Old 19 Oct 2017, 07:54 (Ref:3774981)   #75
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Hamilton is by far a better driver than Vettel. If you cannot acknowledge that then....
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Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Well I can't acknowledge that.
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I do think Hamilton has the edge over Vettel

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