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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:21 (Ref:3415241)   #1
john ruston
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Driving Standards

At long last one of the major organisers has done something about driving standards and stood down drivers who have turned Historic Racing into a contact sport .

When will the others have the balls to do the same thing or are they interested in entry fees and keeping the (any) customers happy irrespective of how the bashers effect the other people in the race.

Doug Nye ,one of the Goodwood grandee's calls Historic Racing 'Pipsqueak'
and he's probably correct.My cars have been on the end of a bashing without even an apology.
The culprits need throwing out irrespective of who they are.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:34 (Ref:3415248)   #2
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Completely Agree.

In the latest edition of HMRN, Carol Spagg, as usual gets straight to the point with a very well written piece. I would love to see it reproduced here.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 14:51 (Ref:3415257)   #3
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Hear, hear!
And I echo the comment on Carol Spagg's editorial which is well worth a read
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 15:01 (Ref:3415262)   #4
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Can anyone scan the piece and get it on here as understand it doesn't beat around the bush on the subject.

She has been involved many years and many of the good ideas ( usually pinched by the other organisers ) have come from her fertile mind.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:15 (Ref:3415291)   #5
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Do we know which Organiser is the subject of the original post?
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:17 (Ref:3415293)   #6
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Can anyone scan the piece and get it on here as understand it doesn't beat around the bush on the subject.
Please run that by one of the management first as it is probably copyright and could cause the site problems.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:19 (Ref:3415297)   #7
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Peter Auto

I will ask Carol Spagg for permission but someone brighter than me will have to post it.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:26 (Ref:3415303)   #8
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Job done

It's in Historic Motor Racing News so no problem.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:32 (Ref:3415306)   #9
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Just had a thought

We may have lost some of our best cars from LMC teams due to this ruling!
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:37 (Ref:3415311)   #10
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I understand that some US drivers are not being given FIA International C licences by ACCUS unless they have qualified for it by racing with the SCCA in a certain number of events. This could possibly be a consequence of the accident at Monaco.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:39 (Ref:3415312)   #11
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Just had a thought

We may have lost some of our best cars from LMC teams due to this ruling!
What ruling is this?
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 16:46 (Ref:3415317)   #12
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I understand that certain drivers have been stood down from Peter Auto Events for time being and as the next one is LMC assume they will not be attending.

It's all explained in the race report in HMRN and Carols piece discusses the situation in general.

Think we have touched on the differences before in driving on either side of the pond!
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 17:09 (Ref:3415321)   #13
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Job done

It's in Historic Motor Racing News so no problem.
Here it is ,with credit to Carol Spagg. Not sure if this is allowed but anyone wanting to subscribe to Historic Motor Racing News should email : contact@historicmotorracingnews.com . I should add that I have no connection to the magazine, and am one of many subscribers/readers.

Recently the subject of crashing historic cars has been much in the news. There was a bad incident at Mugello, which led to the exclusion of one team, and Monaco saw several beautiful and historic cars damaged, some quite badly. Fortunately, we haven’t had any injuries reported to us through all of this, but we need to remember those who have been injured in these kinds of incidents and had their lives changed forever. Everyone hates to see a crash in a historic race, (with the exception of some spectators) and yet they keep happening. YouTube is abuzz with in-car camera footage showing this crash or that incident, all the commentators laying the blame on one driver or the other.
It is always a delicate balance between racing seriously and racing to win, and preserving and enjoying the cars we all love. For some of the more competitive drivers, there would be no point in racing if they could not have a real chance of winning. They hone their skills, they buy the right cars and they race and race until they are at the front of the pack, but they should bear in mind that for many historic car owners, the motivation for racing is simply to enjoy the cars, with the pleasure enhanced if they win or place well. There is room for both approaches in historic racing, but misunderstandings will only be avoided when there is mutual respect.
Those who love their cars and are happy to race them should not be looked upon with the kind of disdain that I sometimes see. It is they who create the whole historic racing scene and give the winners a stage on which to shine. They should not be intimidated or discouraged by drivers out to win at all costs. They are the ones performing the best service to all of us: The preservation in running order of the cars, so that others who follow will have something to drive. At the same time, the hardcore racers and tuners are maintaining a tradition that has existed since racing began, and they should not be criticised for it.
Then there is the Monaco-Le Mans Classic-Silverstone Classic-Goodwood effect. Without an outright win at one of these meetings, life is just not complete for some and they nearly become desperate on track, driving their way through. Others own prestigious cars, but have not got the kind of racing experience to be able to cope with the hard chargers, and a clash of culture, and of racing cars follows.
If more race directors were willing to sanction bad behaviour, or incompetent behaviour on track, there would probably be fewer crashes. And if faster drivers respected slower drivers a little more, there would be fewer crashes. Finally, if slower drivers didn’t grow horns and outdrive themselves trying to keep up, it would also be a big help.
Monaco was a full International event and every driver needed an International licence. There is also certainly some scope for ASNs to look at what they require before issuing International licences for events such as Monaco.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 17:54 (Ref:3415353)   #14
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Thanks for that! Well done Carol and Patrick Peter.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 18:27 (Ref:3415374)   #15
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The Historic Championship that I sometimes race in has also introduced an incident form to be completed after every incident, so they can see which individual's names keep featuring and hopefully will do something about them.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 18:34 (Ref:3415378)   #16
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skentellytubby should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As a holder of an International Licence I had to photo copy some results and send a cheque for a larger amount than a National one.

Ample proof of my driving ability I think.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 18:47 (Ref:3415389)   #17
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Its not the first time Carols spoken out, hopefully it won't be the last. I doubt much will change to eliminate the need.

If it creates a wave will it just further fuel a 2 tier historic fraternity?

As a minor aside there is always the blame factor, some drivers are above it, it was the cars fault etc . . how long thereafter before people start suing each other?

I can't even afford to paint my car at the moment so racing is a way off, if indeed I want to or can afford to. Obviously I want to, but not sure where.
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 20:02 (Ref:3415429)   #18
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Good to see a bit of common sense permeating to the posh end of our sport; CSCC have been hot on driving standards for some seasons now.
You'd be a shoo-in for Swinging Sixties Joe...
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Old 4 Jun 2014, 20:34 (Ref:3415443)   #19
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As MGDavid and FISCRacer will attest, when we raced with Pieter Bakker's FISC series we had damage scrutineers and had to have very good explanations for any damage to our cars if we wanted to avoid grid penalties or even being "invited" to not take part in the next round.

Hospitality extended to organised meals, on the basis that drivers who had to look each other in the eye over the dinner table we're unlikely to do anything stupid on the track. It certainly worked.
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Old 5 Jun 2014, 08:05 (Ref:3415615)   #20
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I am not sure hospitality has anything to do with it as sadly in many instances dents on cars are worn as a badge of honour... its interesting to note that regular series (HSCC, CSCC etc) are not the problem. Probably this is largely due to everyone working out who the aggressive drivers and those who never look in their mirrors are and giving them a wide berth.

In less frequent series you dont know who the bad guys are and that is why LMC, Spa 6 Hour and others have had so many problems with driving standards.

As a generalization it also does seem to me the aggressive drivers tend to drive the same cars - Mustangs, LC's and in GT world big bangers, cars that are bought for pot hunting rather than a love of a particular car. It makes me wonder why many of these arrivistes bother with historics rather than testing their new found "talent" against real racing car drivers as its a lot of money to spend for a plastic cup and one line in Autosport!

With Carol championing the cause it will have every chance of success. When Carol ran Gentleman Drivers along with Julius's Top Hat are still rembered by many as the golden days of recent historic racing
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Old 5 Jun 2014, 08:49 (Ref:3415634)   #21
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It's too much emphasis on 'Racing' and not enough on the 'Historic'. Accompanying the desire to win at all costs, naturally includes, in effect, making the cars no longer 'historic' by throwing loads of money at them so that they look and perform unlike the cars they purport to be. It does seem to be the bigger cars that are particularly prone to this 'makeover'.
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Old 5 Jun 2014, 09:35 (Ref:3415650)   #22
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cars that are bought for pot hunting rather than a love of a particular car. It makes me wonder why many of these arrivistes bother with historics rather than testing their new found "talent" against real racing car drivers as its a lot of money to spend for a plastic cup and one line in Autosport!
Quite!
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Old 5 Jun 2014, 09:45 (Ref:3415654)   #23
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Originally Posted by john ruston View Post
At long last one of the major organisers has done something about driving standards and stood down drivers who have turned Historic Racing into a contact sport .

When will the others have the balls to do the same thing or are they interested in entry fees and keeping the (any) customers happy irrespective of how the bashers effect the other people in the race.

Doug Nye ,one of the Goodwood grandee's calls Historic Racing 'Pipsqueak'
and he's probably correct.My cars have been on the end of a bashing without even an apology.
The culprits need throwing out irrespective of who they are.
I now that in some quarters CSCC are not considered to be a "proper" major organisation (despite routinely having 300 cars out at meetings) but as MG David has said the CSCC have been championing good driving standards for many years and have asked members to resign, excluded drivers from meetings and/ or not accepted applications to join several times.

CSCC has recently formalised this with a 4 stage disciplinary process that has been issued to all members. Of note, If an incident is considered severe enough, the Committee reserve the right to jump straight to stage 4 - exclusion from the club!

It's not difficult really.

Nevertheless, incidents do still occur and I think the belief in the "racing incident" is too easy really. Many "racing incidents" occur because drivers don't have any forethought, anticipation or respect for their fellow competitors. Some would rather have the bang than back off. Me, I'd rather back off and come home with all 4 wheels pointing the right direction and the bank account intact.

Last edited by andy97; 5 Jun 2014 at 09:50.
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Old 5 Jun 2014, 11:05 (Ref:3415678)   #24
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I now that in some quarters CSCC are not considered to be a "proper" major organisation (despite routinely having 300 cars out at meetings) but as MG David has said the CSCC have been championing good driving standards for many years and have asked members to resign, excluded drivers from meetings and/ or not accepted applications to join several times.
That's why it's always a pleasure to marshal at CSCC meetings. CSCC's robust approach to driving standards means that the racing will be close & clean & that appropriate action will be taken on any incidents that do occur - a driver has been excluded from the meeting on the basis of one of my reports.

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Nevertheless, incidents do still occur and I think the belief in the "racing incident" is too easy really. Many "racing incidents" occur because drivers don't have any forethought, anticipation or respect for their fellow competitors. Some would rather have the bang than back off. Me, I'd rather back off and come home with all 4 wheels pointing the right direction and the bank account intact.
A very wise Clerk of the Course once said that there's no such thing as a "racing incident". Every incident has a cause & is therefore avoidable - that doesn't necessarily mean that someone should be punished for every incident.
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Old 5 Jun 2014, 11:06 (Ref:3415679)   #25
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Originally Posted by john ruston View Post
At long last one of the major organisers has done something about driving standards and stood down drivers who have turned Historic Racing into a contact sport .

When will the others have the balls to do the same thing or are they interested in entry fees and keeping the (any) customers happy irrespective of how the bashers effect the other people in the race.

Doug Nye ,one of the Goodwood grandee's calls Historic Racing 'Pipsqueak'
and he's probably correct.My cars have been on the end of a bashing without even an apology.
The culprits need throwing out irrespective of who they are.

aaahhh, the legendary and immortal "Pipsqueak" comment.........
dedicated historacers wear that label as a badge of honour nowadays

what is remarkable of course is the fact that a Goodwood adviser goes out his way to devalue their product as a "Pipsqueak" activity

back to the programme from one pipsqueak to the others:
I am certainly very much against aggressive and/or stupid driving that endangers other drivers, the spectating public and the cars involved

Rudolf
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