Should Alonso have recieved a push start

[T0MAT01]

TGF = That German Fellow

[Armco Bender]

Do away with gravel traps and just dig a big pit around the track edges,if you spin off and fall into the pit your out!.

[Glen]

Great idea! They could fill the run-off pits with custard or something, for comedy value and humiliation.

[f1manoz]

I haven't read much of this thread, but a precedent was set when TGF was push-started at the Nurburgring in what was essentially the same sort of position Alonso was in on Sunday. Therefore, Alonso should have received a push-start as well.

However, what the FIA need to do is clarify the rules. Their stupid rule-book is full of rules that are open to all different sorts of interpretation.

[Glen]

Originally posted by f1manoz
I haven't read much of this thread, but a precedent was set when TGF was push-started at the Nurburgring in what was essentially the same sort of position Alonso was in on Sunday. Therefore, Alonso should have received a push-start as well.

If you had read the thread you would have discovered that the situations were far from similar! Woolley's post is very good.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by T0MAT01
TGF = That German Fellow

Perhaps it is time to dispense of the TGF nickname, rather than explain it to all new users.

[NiG_21]

Originally posted by Woolley
Car is very unlikely to be moveable, and if it is, it's going straight into the path of an incoming car they probably can't see. Quickest/safest action= get out and we'll lift it, you ain't going anywhere.

Before reading this thread I was firmly set into the Grumble-Grumble camp on whether FA should have been pushed. But I have changed my mind put yourself in the Marshals place and think about the 'push' you are being asked to give. FA was buried quite deep and you'd be pushing on the rear wing while he was trying to get traction... where do you think all that gravel that he'd kick up was going to go!

Oh yes, and it is gravel (we all know that) not sand. This stuff is hard to walk in let alone push in.

In both cases mentioned here I am now convinced the Marhsals did the right thing. In the 2003 incident it was the race stewards that didn't have the 'balls' to enforce their own rules that was the problem. (I think) :P

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Kirk
Perhaps it is time to dispense of the TGF nickname, rather than explain it to all new users.

Yep, especially as TJL who originated it is gone...

[F40_LM]

Originally posted by Gt_R
So what? Is it Michael's fault that somehow people like to help him?

Duh..this thread is getting quite out of hand.

Why should what happen yesterday trigger off a discussion in Nurburgring.

And somebody had said that it cost Renault points relative to BAR, and that they agree it doesn't hurt Ferrari whether or not Alonso is beached or back in race... THEN why?!! is it that the marshals "pro-Ferrari" hence favourtism? What's the benefits of not letting Renault get back, when there's completely nothing to lose? Why drag Ferrari into it?

Now, when finish answering those points..maybe Alonso can give his sour-brains a similar washing..than to take it out on Ferrari who clearly has NOTHING to do with what happen. How poorly thought out and contradictory statements have we seen here...

err... why are you calling Alonso "sour-brains"? Did he say it wasn't fair that TGF got a push and he didnt? It was just pure frustration on his part.
and for goodness sake, no one is saying it wasn;t fair TGF got a push and ALonso didn't, I couldnt care less for that matter, what i care about is the clarification of the rules... i.e. if you get beached, turn off the engine, get out, go home, and let the marshalls clear your car.
Your constant sensitivity and whining about how other members of this board are targeting Ferrari and TGF is really getting annoying...you're just getting riled up all for nothing...

[ralf fan]

Let me clear up something.... at the beginning i wasnt implying that the marshalls are MS supporters or such...

all i said was situation was the same.. car beached,engine running... MS recieved a push..
Alonso didnt... and did he deserved to get one under the circumstances

My personal opinion is that in light of what happened in 2003 Alonso should have recieved a push start... they could have allowed him to continue and then the stewards could have Disqualified Alonso if there was something wrong with the incident (ie if he actually was not in a dangerous position)

Like the above poster id like the Fia to be consistent in their rules and be clear... but then this is the Fia

[T0MAT01]

Originally posted by Kirk
Perhaps it is time to dispense of the TGF nickname, rather than explain it to all new users.

Perhaps you could request a poll to see what everyone thinks about scrapping its use, rather than assuming people know that its suddenly been deemed the 11th sin.

[Marbot]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Yep, especially as TJL who originated it is gone...

Who's TJL?

[Knowlesy]

Turgid Jamaican Lavatory

[Dutton]

I doubt dispensing of TGF can just be done. People will more than likely continue to use it anyway.

It isn't THAT hard to explain it.

Alternately: when you registered with the site, why not just have a page that comes up telling you what TGF stands for?

Hell all mighty.....craziness.

[Marbot]

Originally posted by knowlesy
Turgid Jamaican Lavatory

I'm glad he's gone

[Woolley]

Originally posted by ralf fan
Let me clear up something.... at the beginning i wasnt implying that the marshalls are MS supporters or such...

all i said was situation was the same.. car beached,engine running... MS recieved a push..
Alonso didnt... and did he deserved to get one under the circumstances

My personal opinion is that in light of what happened in 2003 Alonso should have recieved a push start...

I know you weren't implying that , but I know that many people believe it is the case theat we will react differently for 'favoured' drivers. It's simply not the case. IMO Alonso's car could not have been pushed safely with him in it, and probably not even without him in it - you'd be surprised just how difficult it is to move a beached car, and you'll have noticed that the wheels were off the ground as he went over the kerb which means you've got to find a different way out from the way he came in, which means you're now pushing with the front wheels turned = even harder. In Michael's case, pushing him was almost certainly the quickest and safest option as he was hardly in the gravel and had sensibly not done that wheel-spinning thing which looks macho but just sinks you further in. And remember by safest I mean

a) for the marshals, and only then
b) for the drivers

We'll clear them, couldn't care less whether they're DQ or not afterwards. As long as they're out of my way and I'm not putting myself at risk, I'm happy!

[Gt_R]

F40-LM..sensitivity is good aint it? Of course one whines after reading posts and posts of threads with similar agenda..but if i'm wanna whine, i won't

A trace back to post-Nurburgring and the "general" consensus then, in a clearly less complicated situation, was that it isn't fair that MS recieve a push from the marshals.

Now, in a more tricky and difficult situation, Alonso is cheated by a marshal who refuses to push, and the marshal recieves a earful for doing his job. The excuse given is that "Michael sets an example". But it's contradictory that if both situations are similar, how Alonso SHOULD be pushed but MS shouldn't (back then). To make matters more laughable, Alonso is clearly in a more difficult position than MS.

I'm no marshal, but i do see a difference in situation which i had explained in my first few replies.Subsequently, informed people have come up with very good explaination about the "difference" of situation, and why Alonso shouldn't be pushed.

I'm quite neutral about whether or not Alonso is back on track or not. Ferrari isn't going to be affected. And while i think it is a PITY that Alonso, after performing quite brilliantly in the race, couldnt bring some points home (as i've stated in earlier replies), my opinion is that it is dangerous/difficult to push Alonso from that position.

As for Alonso "sour-brain", yes, you've said it too, he's frustrated..and hence he made senseless remarks out of anger. That's why i suggest a "washing". clear his mind before he really speak. Check the video tapes, think about it before making allegations. It isn't fair for Ferrari, and even less so for the marshal. You realise in subsequent interviews, he's less critical.

[johnh875]

I would question whether marshalls should be pushing anyone while the race is only under yellows. If one driver has spum off then surely another may, and as stated before, it is doubtful any slowing down occurs...

And on topic, I think if the car is able to continue after being removed from the gravel then it should do so - few enough cars finish races as it is, and the time spent in the gravel is enough "penalty" imho!

[Gt_R]

I too would just like a clarification of rules from next season onwards, just like the introduction of TC and such, just for the sake of removing all these controversy and unnecessary arguments.

Anyway, IF the marshal did it out of favouritism, i'd be sorely disappointed with his professionalism. But right now, i'm just looking at the incident in itself.

[Glen]

I don't see what needs to be clarified - if it is safe to do so Marshalls will push a car out of a dangerous position. It wasn't safe - they didn't push. End of. Not unclear. Not inconsistent. Not difficult to understand.

[JonJ]

I think we can all agree that the rules say that Alonso could have legally got a push, and had the marshals been able to they should have. But from a marshals point of view it didn't look physically possible to get him out, so what were they supposed to do? Call for back up and spend half an hour pushing? Wouldn't have helped Alonso.

There's no confusion about the rule, just a case of whether the conditions allow it to be executed, and in this case they didn't. Fair enough if you don't agree with the rule, but don't have ago at the marshals just so you can bash TGF.

How many of you have actually pushed a car out of a gravel trap on a live circuit?

[F40_LM]

I for one am not in favour of pushing the car back out in any case, once it's beached it's beached. That's why i believe TGF should not have been pushed back into the race, and hence Alsonso as well. It's quite ridiculous that you can receive outside help to get your car back onto the track, this isnt motoGP or WRC, in both cases the driver(navigator for WRC) or rider can do it and therefore is counted, but in single-seaters like F1 it's just not right - it's not by your own effort you can get back onto the track and rejoin.

[DKGandBH]

Where I come from we call TGF, GCB

DKGandBH

[oziengineer]

I think that it was wrong not to push him back on the track. They won't touch the car to get him out of a bad position when all that is needed is a nudge, but they will move the tractor and a lot of crew to get him out. They were probably in more danger doing that!

[Glen]

Originally posted by oziengineer
I think that it was wrong not to push him back on the track. They won't touch the car to get him out of a bad position when all that is needed is a nudge, but they will move the tractor and a lot of crew to get him out. They were probably in more danger doing that!

If all it needed were a nudge, and that nudge could have been administered safely, then they would have, well, nudged him.