The Alonso blocking/penalty thread (AKA The rage is on !) [MERGED]

[willb]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I hope he isn't pinning his sales projections on that prediction/fact!

Oh God, look at the book title too!

maybe he's james allen writing under a pseudonym

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by willb

maybe he's james allen writing under a pseudonym

You think JA can write?

[NAC]

Man this thread is doing my head in.

Can someone give an update where this is at.

BTW I think we all know what happened. I'm just chasing the other 600 odd post, post GP once we got over the incident.

[pottiella]

well, just going back to the original topic, this is quite a nice (and fairly humour) impartial summing up of the Hungarian GP events...it's not exactly them hovering in the middle ground either, but not needing to put a spin on certain things or miss bits out for convenience...

http://f1rejects.com/centrale/2007/hungary/index.html

a classic case of how the average spectator can talk alot more sense than journalists sometimes

the most appropriate line about the whole episode in all the media coverage: "three wrongs don't make a right"

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by pottiella

well, just going back to the original topic, this is quite a nice (and fairly humour) impartial summing up of the Hungarian GP events...it's not exactly them hovering in the middle ground either, but not needing to put a spin on certain things or miss bits out for convenience...

http://f1rejects.com/centrale/2007/hungary/index.html

a classic case of how the average spectator can talk alot more sense than journalists sometimes

the most appropriate line about the whole episode in all the media coverage: "three wrongs don't make a right"

These 3 paragraphs isum it up for me. Spot on!

The stewards' blind failure to see the common sense in this, and their need to intervene with harsh and arbitrary penalties, was disturbing. They were not entitled to punish Alonso's wrong without having regard to Hamilton's initial wrong, which itself could have cost Alonso pole. Why should Alonso's wrong have been within their jurisdiction, and Hamilton's not so? And even if they had to only punish Alonso, dropping him to 2nd was enough, let alone demoting him to 6th and punishing the team as well.

For this ham-fisted heavy-handedness, we give the stewards of the meet the 'Reject of the Race' award. Also for the fact that their intervention may have a critical impact on the championship. Hamilton has had things easy this year, but all the stewards did were succeed in making life even easier for him. Instead of starting 2nd to Alonso's pole, he got to start from pole with Alonso stuck in 6th! No Hamilton title victory can be allowed to go down in the history books without reference to this helping hand from the stewards.

In this writer's eyes, Hamilton's own reputation took a massive beating - seemingly within his own team as well as from the outside world. His childish, almost-in-tears indignation over the radio at the end of qualifying as well as in the immediate post-qualifying interviews, where he even started to sarcastically mock Alonso as if in complete disregard for his role in triggering the whole episode, reeked of a spoilt child who has been too used to having it his own way.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by NAC

Man this thread is doing my head in.

Mine too.

[Born Racer]

In simple terms, the way I see it, what Alonso did was worse than what Hamilton did, because Hamilton disobeyed an order but didn't actually impede, whereas Alonso specifically impeded Hamilton from making his pit-stop. And that was probably part of the logic behind Alonso's punishment.

Now, enough talk about "fanboys" please- most people on this forum are actually very unbiased, and the place isn't full of jingoistic nonsense as has been implied.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

In simple terms, the way I see it, what Alonso did was worse than what Hamilton did, because Hamilton disobeyed an order but didn't actually impede, whereas Alonso specifically impeded Hamilton from making his pit-stop. And that was probably part of the logic behind Alonso's punishment.

I'm not entirely sure we know that Hamilton didn't impede Alonso as we don't know in detail what effect it had on Maclaren's strategy.

The debating point though is what matters most, the action that someone takes (disobeying an order) or the outcome of it? Is Hamilton's crime less, worse or no difference dependant on the outcome of it all?

(does that make sense?)

[strider]

If we must continue to debate this, here's another, considered assessment: http://www.grandprix.com/gt/gt19515.html

[Marbot]

DC's views on the subject...interesting.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40345

Particularly how 'we' the public percieve the 'sport'.

[pottiella]

yeah, I think DC's right about the transparency thing - too often lately are penalties dished out with vague explanations except "we saw the evidence, you didn't", and about rules that are ambiguous or out of the blue. This isn't a criminal court of law whereby there is a necessary level of discretion required for the protection of those involved. I think quite a few people in the paddock have been vocal about this; and of course Monza last year is till too fresh in people's minds.

If somebody has done something wrong worthy of punishment, then fair enough, but the authority should give some credibility to their authority.

He's pretty straighforward and right in my view, about the rest...

[JeremySmith]

This article is so accurate and sums up the situation to me.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61550

[pottiella]

yes...another opinion from another ex-champ...always the true measure of accuracy

[davyboy]

Actually its more than that. Surtees know Hamilton pretty well from karting. Surtees' has been around the karting scene the past few years supporting his kid, Henry[now 17] and had plenty of opportunity to see Hamilton ply his trade at close quarters.

One important point Surtees made is that while Hamilton, Alonso and McLaren war with each other... Ferrari are getting on with things and if they can capitalize on the advantage the next few races bring them... could well wrest the title from the McLaren fold by year end.

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Actually its more than that. Surtees know Hamilton pretty well from karting. Surtees' has been around the karting scene the past few years supporting his kid, Henry[now 17] and had plenty of opportunity to see Hamilton ply his trade at close quarters.

One important point Surtees made is that while Hamilton, Alonso and McLaren war with each other... Ferrari are getting on with things and if they can capitalize on the advantage the next few races bring them... could well wrest the title from the McLaren fold by year end.

that explains alot with that article then...thanks for clearing it up.

about Ferrari though - I'm not so sure if that will happen. Yeah, now we're getting to Ferrari tracks, they can't afford to pull stunts like they did at Hungary (where lucky for them they were so much quicker than the Ferraris in quali that it had little bearing except the penalty) - but I don't think they will because the consequences at Hungary were so high...on and off the track.

What's more is that Ferrari aren't exactly playing a team game between their team drivers - it's every man for themselves in that team too. Maybe closer to the time, if Ferrari get a whiff of the constructors they might make they're drivers play supportive to each other; which btw I really don't think come to that situation either Massa or Kimi will like it very much. Massa was happy to play second fiddle to Michael...he won't be with Kimi; and Kimi tends to become increasingly withdrawn if he finishes behind massa without either having a problem. Maybe that's something more to do with the relationship dynamics within Ferrari...who knows.

McLaren know fine well they're about to be hunted - otherwise I don't think they would have appealed. They will not allow their drivers to botch this up...

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by pottiella

yes...another opinion from another ex-champ...always the true measure of accuracy

I laughed at your ridiculous statement, then realized you were being sarcastic.....duh at slow me!

[Marbot]

The Hungary points withdrawal hearing will be heard six days 'after' the espionage hearing.You can draw your own conclusions on that one!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61556

I suppose it would be a little bit heartless if you reinstated their constructor points only to kick them out of the championship the week after.

[Peter Mallett]

Well the only logical conclusion is that the Stepneygate appeal was slated before the Hungarygate appeal. Its probably something called timing.

[Knowlesy]

Oh there you go again being logical! Stop, you are out of line with the thread!

[LadySnowcat]

One of the most interesting aspects is that the press will be allowed to the Pitlanegate appeal....

It will be interesting to find out who they accredit...

Brits versus Italians...

Hmmm....

[Datsun]

Also agree with D.C.'s "transparency" comment. It is the FIA that must be transparent, not the teams (which is exactly what McLaren's points were withheld for, not being "transparent").

Unfortunately, the public (in this country anyway) seem to have more and more a taste for a society in which the AUTHORITIES are allowed to be inscrutible, while the citizens (or rather, SUBJECTS) are forced to be "transparent"...

[Peter Mallett]

Well if you go that far we'll wait until the last minute and unleash THE SUN on the procedings.

*sits back with a "top that you *******" grin on his face.*

[LadySnowcat]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well if you go that far we'll wait until the last minute and unleash THE SUN on the procedings.

*sits back with a "top that you *******" grin on his face.*

I guess that depends on who The Sun send...

Someone from the back pages...

Or the inside front?....

[Peter Mallett]

No good sending anyone from the back pages. Too many balls.

[LadySnowcat]

On the other hand we also wouldn't want things to be blown up out of proportion....

Always a problem near the front of the Sun....