Schumacher wasnt as bad as you all thought?

[Massa_number1]

Rosberg clearly so far has matched Lewis in the opening races where he had the beating of a 40 odd year old Schumacher by maybe 2 tenths overall on pace.

A 28 year old Schumacher would have been faster (or at the very least level) with Rosberg, Hamilton matched Alonso so Schumacher can be considered at the same level as all these drivers in his prime even at 40 he only lost 2 tenths or so

So this generations top drivers are NOT much better than Schumacher in his prime like many suggest

[Aysedasi]

He's gone.

I'm not that fussed about TGF comparisons any more......

[garcon]

Schumacher at his peak was head and shoulders better than any of the current crop, with the arguable exceptions of Alonso, Raikkonen and Vettel. The first two are the only drivers still out there to compete with him at his best, Vettel we don't know yet but has the potential to match him. The rest ... well, they're just the rest.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by garcon

Schumacher at his peak was head and shoulders better than any of the current crop, with the arguable exceptions of Alonso, Raikkonen and Vettel. The first two are the only drivers still out there to compete with him at his best, Vettel we don't know yet but has the potential to match him. The rest ... well, they're just the rest.

Including the current driver of Mercedes no. 10?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

He's gone.

I'm not that fussed about TGF comparisons any more......

Me neither..

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

He's gone.

I'm not that fussed about TGF comparisons any more......

Check.


Let's move along...

[wnut]

Given that Schu was better than Nico was in 2012 .....

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by garcon

Schumacher at his peak was head and shoulders better than any of the current crop, with the arguable exceptions of Alonso, Raikkonen and Vettel. The first two are the only drivers still out there to compete with him at his best, Vettel we don't know yet but has the potential to match him. The rest ... well, they're just the rest.

Hamilton has to go into that category. I don't personally agree with Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen and Hamilton all being considered "greats"...but they're all worth the debate. Who you eliminate of those drivers just depends on personal opinion. Hamilton's a world champion who matched the great Alonso in his debut season and has produced some inspirational drives...but he's only won the WDC once, of course. But it's extremely harsh to dump him with "the rest".

It's my opinion that Raikkonen and Vettel still have to prove to me that they're better drivers than Hamilton and Alonso....but there's plenty that wouldn't give Hamilton the time of day.

They're all world class drivers and world champions in a very competitive era of the sport. I don't care whether they're better than Schumacher or not, I'm enjoying how close they are on track, even if I'm not enjoying the manner in which those races are being played out at present.

There was often a laughable gap between Schumacher and his team-mates....but many of them also couldn't hold a candle to the drivers on the grid today. It's easy to forget that Grosjean is a ruddy quick driver, for example.

[Razzzor]

Schumacher is better than all drivers on the current grid imo. Sometimes he'd have an off day where Barrichello was on his pace, but most drivers do.

Alonso is probably the only one I'd look as approaching Schumacher.

I also think though that Hamilton and Vettel are faster than Alonso on raw speed, but just not as consistent at this stage.

I definitely disagree that Vettel hasn't proven himself. He's won 3 titles for crying out loud. Just because he hasn't had Louis or Mr We're-1.5secs-off-the-pace as a team mate doesn't make him unproven. He's dominated Webber, though not to the same extent of Alonso vs Massa.

Hamilton is less proven - Button outscoring him over 3 seasons and now Rosberg completely owning him at Spain? He can qualify, and he had a great debut season while Alonso and the Ferrari's tripped over themselves. His title doesn't mean so much because he damn near lost it to Massa of all people.

The more Rosberg beats Hamilton, the more it improves Schumacher's reputation against the current field.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Hamilton has to go into that category. I don't personally agree with Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen and Hamilton all being considered "greats"...but they're all worth the debate. Who you eliminate of those drivers just depends on personal opinion. Hamilton's a world champion who matched the great Alonso in his debut season and has produced some inspirational drives...but he's only won the WDC once, of course. But it's extremely harsh to dump him with "the rest".

It's my opinion that Raikkonen and Vettel still have to prove to me that they're better drivers than Hamilton and Alonso....but there's plenty that wouldn't give Hamilton the time of day.

I think this season will show where Hamilton really is. Today, he was definitely part of the 'rest'.

[bella]

schumacher was excellent, but the problem with his comeback was that his average days when he had the dumb and drove into people were more frequent. and that made him no better than the other guys who were doing exactly the same thing.

sorry to be the mod who disagrees with the other mods, but with hindsight and hamilton doing not much better than schumacher compared to rosberg i think there is a fair amount to discuss on this. particularly if the season went on.

if only the op hadn't been so passive aggressive with his post and thread title....

[Massa_number1]

I agree with alot of you on the fact Alonso is clearly on a prime Schumachers level and also Vettel would be there or thereabouts he is undeniably talented, Hamilton at his peak is brilliant but he is very inconsistent these days.

Kimi has actually become a better driver in my eyes he seems to have improved his race craft no end since coming back of course the easy on its tyres Lotus helps but he has finished in the points so often which wasnt always the case.Schumacher did the right thing retiring he wasnt his old self but he was still competitive (amazing for 42yrs old) and his previous 'career' should not be questioned in my opinion.

[FAS33]

2 tenths off your teamate is miles away.

[chunder]

I guess Schumachers issue has always been an unfortunate one, at Benetton the team were cheats as was he at times

And at Ferrari especially in the later years he had a gigantic car and tyre advantage a lot of the time, and anytime anyone came along to upset that be it Hakkinen or Alonso, they were a match. HIs time for me was late 90's turning the team around, battering Irvine and the like in the same car. And just after that his dominance, you watched him drive then and could visually a man on another level.

No doubt MS is one of the best ever, but his achievements are sadly based on circumstance rather than his ability.

He never won much in a poor car, never drove one really apart from this Mercedes where he was not off the pace.

I am sure he answered a lot of questions when he came back and is so similar to Rossi, still a great, never really won against anyone good much, and was soundly beaten when the level incrased in different more equal cars/bikes.

I have always rated Nico and it doesn't surprise me that he is doing well against Lewis, but I think Spain was a one off, they have been evenly matched up to now. And people seem to forget how quick Lewis was against Fernando in 07 and how much mutual respect after anger they have for each other now.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by beau1

I think this season will show where Hamilton really is. Today, he was definitely part of the 'rest'.

That's one race though, isn't it? It's more or less accepted that Hamilton outshone Button at McLaren (despite his petulance, which I'm sure has been done to death on this forum, which I don't visit very often), and Button's a decent peddler himself.

What this season will prove, I think, is that Rosberg is better than was once thought. For a time he was the best driver on the grid not to have won a race by an absolute country mile.

It wouldn't surprise me, even, if Rosberg did get the better over Hamilton this season, I don't underestimate him - but he's not a champion, I don't think. Hamilton is, and occasionally shines in an era of the sport which has never suited a driver like him less.

But to go back to the question - what on earth is this season about? Will this season really decide who's the better driver in inter-team rivalries, or will it just be an exercise in proving who looks after Pirelli tires better?

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by chunder

I have always rated Nico and it doesn't surprise me that he is doing well against Lewis, but I think Spain was a one off, they have been evenly matched up to now. And people seem to forget how quick Lewis was against Fernando in 07 and how much mutual respect after anger they have for each other now.

This is something I was getting at. Ask Alonso who he rates, and Hamilton will always come out of his mouth at once. (EDIT - not literally of course, although that would spice up his interviews).

I don't think Spain was a one-off though. Nico is an intelligent driver and a decent racer, and he will get the better of Hamilton sometimes, like Button did.

At the front teams, though, you just don't get the situation any more where one driver is massively quicker than the other and beats him at every single GP.

[Razzzor]

People do say that Schumacher had no opposition. But sometimes I struggle with this. So we're saying from 1994 till 2005 when Fernando and Kimi emerged, Hakkinen and Schumacher were the only really talented drivers?

How could we have gone over 10 years with so much average talent? Where was all this talent? How did it not get through the ranks?

Maybe we didn't? Maybe it's a more a case of the teams being quite spread out over that period with only Ferrari, McLaren and Williams (unless you count Benetton in 94/95) capable of winning races. When you have teams that don't have a chance in hell of battling near the front, it's hard to stand out.

But since the late 2000s and now with the tyre wars, it's easy for a middle team to make an impact such as Perez, Rosberg, Maldonado last year.

It didn't help that Schumacher never had a really quick teammate - Irvine and Barrichello are no better than Massa. Coulthard no better than Webber.

I don't know... maybe we really did just have a strange occurance in F1 throughout Schumacher's career where we had the weakest talent pool since it started in 1950.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

This is something I was getting at. Ask Alonso who he rates, and Hamilton will always come out of his mouth at once. (EDIT - not literally of course, although that would spice up his interviews).

I don't think Spain was a one-off though. Nico is an intelligent driver and a decent racer, and he will get the better of Hamilton sometimes, like Button did.

At the front teams, though, you just don't get the situation any more where one driver is massively quicker than the other and beats him at every single GP.

Yeah but Alonso is bound to say Hamilton, because he's always trying to talk himself up and Hamilton is the only one that's ever beaten him in the same team. Well, except Tarso Marques :P

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yeah but Alonso is bound to say Hamilton, because he's always trying to talk himself up and Hamilton is the only one that's ever beaten him in the same team. Well, except Tarso Marques :P

You obviously take your second places really seriously?

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I definitely disagree that Vettel hasn't proven himself. He's won 3 titles for crying out loud.

Yeah, but in two of them, he wasn't legitimately the best driver of the season. There is a huge argument to say he wasn't even legitimately the second best driver in '10 and '12. Even the legitimate third best!

Originally Posted by chunder

people seem to forget how quick Lewis was against Fernando in 07 and how much mutual respect after anger they have for each other now.

Nobody forgets how quick he is/was. It's almost an indictment on him though, that his best season so far may've been his first.

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

It's my opinion that Raikkonen and Vettel still have to prove to me that they're better drivers than Hamilton and Alonso....but there's plenty that wouldn't give Hamilton the time of day.

Jesus! I'm scared to ask what he has to do.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Jesus! I'm scared to ask what he has to do.

Haha, ok, I worded that very poorly. All I meant to say was that I'd like to see Vettel in a less competitive car again.

[formerf1champ]

Yep, ok.


Anyway, the theme of the thread so far has been about outright pace, qualifying intensity type pace? If so, big deal! Whoopee do! A tenth here, two tenths there, so what? What is the number you get at the end of a sunday afternoon is what counts. In this regard, accounting for the relative competitiveness of the Mercedes since '10, this is where the damning stats are. The easiest stat to show is podium finishes. Nico has five, Schu has one. Hamilton already has more podiums than Schu did in three seasons. In fact, Lewis has already scored more points than what Schu did last year!

[Kempi]

There is a huge argument to say he wasn't even legitimately the second best driver in '10

Which would be? And if not, who would it be (assuming that Alonso was the best in your opinion)?

[jedrinck]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

This is something I was getting at. Ask Alonso who he rates, and Hamilton will always come out of his mouth at once.

Sure, what else would he say? There was Alonso's ill fated McLaren season so he has to talk Hamilton up because it in return elevates himself. This is the driver who twitters the s**t out of cheesy Samurai quotes and talks the Ferrari down to no end. It's the car that deals the best with the tires, Ferrari scored 1-3. But he has to say something like 'the car is c**p but everybody here works so hard to make it faster' and he probably thinks it makes him sound like a team player or something. I think it makes him look like he suffers from profile neurosis. Another factor may be the hope to unsettle his rivals, in particular Vettel. Alonso is not ashamed to say things like his real opponent is Newey, so he talks Vettel down by naming Hamilton his only true rival in terms of ability. I wonder what would happen if the Mercedes suddenly became a championship contender, who would Alonso then choose to be his greatest rival?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Which would be? And if not, who would it be (assuming that Alonso was the best in your opinion)?

Firstly, you assumed correctly that Alonso was best. However, there is a case to say Hamilton was second best. Off the top of my head, Hamilton had won in Belgium. He had three wins and the title lead or not far behind, when the Red bull was a clear standout car. Alonso and Vettel stuffed up that day. Most of the season had formed. At the time, I thought the season had opened up for him to run away with it. I remember thinking he was fairly the best driver of the season, at that point. Webber and Vettel had it too good with the RB6.

It all turned pear shaped for him after that. But it's a long season, you can argue too long (19, 20 races? I would). If anyone expressed an opinion to say he was second best that year, I wouldn't be knocking them.

[Massa_number1]

Originally Posted by chunder

I guess Schumachers issue has always been an unfortunate one, at Benetton the team were cheats as was he at times

And at Ferrari especially in the later years he had a gigantic car and tyre advantage a lot of the time, and anytime anyone came along to upset that be it Hakkinen or Alonso, they were a match. HIs time for me was late 90's turning the team around, battering Irvine and the like in the same car. And just after that his dominance, you watched him drive then and could visually a man on another level.

No doubt MS is one of the best ever, but his achievements are sadly based on circumstance rather than his ability.

He never won much in a poor car, never drove one really apart from this Mercedes where he was not off the pace.

I am sure he answered a lot of questions when he came back and is so similar to Rossi, still a great, never really won against anyone good much, and was soundly beaten when the level incrased in different more equal cars/bikes.

I have always rated Nico and it doesn't surprise me that he is doing well against Lewis, but I think Spain was a one off, they have been evenly matched up to now. And people seem to forget how quick Lewis was against Fernando in 07 and how much mutual respect after anger they have for each other now.

I really have disagree with alot of points you made in your post, To say Schumacher never won in a poor car is laughable he won 3 races in the 96 Ferrari prompting Irvine to say how Schumacher won in that car is a miracle (Id trust Irivines judgement over yours since he was a professional driver after all) He also made a fight of the 1998 season against a car that lapped everyone in the whole field in the first race in Australia EXCEPT Schumacher!

At the time I thought how he took the title down to the last race with amazing wins in Hungary for example was nothing short of unbelievable.Look at spain 94 I think it was? He drove 30 laps in 5th gear matching the leading cars pace almost and people claim he wasnt a special driver?

Schumacer at 40 wasnt on the same level as Hamilton,Alonso,Vettel,Roseberg, but he stayed in touch with them securing a pole position and a podium and while that doesnt live up to what was expected if you take a step back you have to admire the fact at 41-43 yrs old he was able to compete still.I havent even bothered mentioning his early career finishing 3rd in the World Championship ahead of Senna in 1992 and only behind a car that was unbeatable in his second season.You cannot deny he was a supreme talent and easily in the top 10 of the greatest F1 drivers of all time