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Old 24 Aug 2017, 21:20 (Ref:3761430)   #676
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
That would be Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd. In 2005, Mario Illien in partnership with Roger Penske bought the Special Projects division from Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd., because it was involved in developing the Honda IndyCar engine from 2003-2006 with HPD, Honda Performance Development. The new company, which is totally independent of Mercedes, is again called Ilmor Engineering Ltd.
Yes. Plus I believe Penske was part owner prior to the buy back from Mercedes as well. The book covers much of this, but not the later buy back (focus of the book is mostly history up to and just beyond the 500 engine). While the development is from a different era and they relied upon quite a bit of on-track testing to debug that design (which can't be done today in F1), it still is an interesting read and view into the engine design process.

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Old 25 Aug 2017, 01:33 (Ref:3761438)   #677
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Yes. Plus I believe Penske was part owner prior to the buy back from Mercedes as well. The book covers much of this, but not the later buy back (focus of the book is mostly history up to and just beyond the 500 engine). While the development is from a different era and they relied upon quite a bit of on-track testing to debug that design (which can't be done today in F1), it still is an interesting read and view into the engine design process.

Richard
It should also be recognized that computer simulation programs are now much more efficient than at that time and may not need to prove that much.
If they want to prove on track they should put a power unit in a LMP1 and there would have a los of hours of testing available
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Old 25 Aug 2017, 02:14 (Ref:3761444)   #678
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It should also be recognized that computer simulation programs are now much more efficient than at that time and may not need to prove that much.
If they want to prove on track they should put a power unit in a LMP1 and there would have a los of hours of testing available
Agree on simulation software, but results are only as good as your model. Regarding mule testing, if they have yet to implement an internal chassis dyno setup which is easier to control the variables plus likely easier and cheaper to run than a mule program, why run a mule first? My point is that IMHO they have lower hanging fruit to pick before using a mule.

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Old 25 Aug 2017, 08:09 (Ref:3761480)   #679
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Alonso almost manages a lap of Spa before the Honda throws a wobbly..
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Old 26 Aug 2017, 14:26 (Ref:3761718)   #680
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...ith-more-power

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Old 26 Aug 2017, 21:25 (Ref:3761775)   #681
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Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
Alonso almost manages a lap of Spa before the Honda throws a wobbly..
Apparentlt there has been an official response that suggests that the car's management systems didn't know where it was on the track because Alonso had not lifted at all through Pouhon and therefore it failed to give him the extra 160bhp available for the next straight.

It only inows which corners it has already taken, apparently, because of the driver's throttle usage pattern.

Really?

One might ask, from a couple of different perspectives, why they bother to have a driver at all.
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Old 26 Aug 2017, 23:11 (Ref:3761790)   #682
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I'm calling bs on the not lifting at all through Pouhon. Seriously, Hamilton (in the best car) set a lap record whilst downshifting through there. that's a big leap to going flat-out.

or you have to car setup to do that, and that's why cars are flying past you on the straight.
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Old 26 Aug 2017, 23:40 (Ref:3761793)   #683
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I'm calling bs on the not lifting at all through Pouhon. Seriously, Hamilton (in the best car) set a lap record whilst downshifting through there. that's a big leap to going flat-out.

or you have to car setup to do that, and that's why cars are flying past you on the straight.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...claren-945396/

and several other sources.

Maybe the Mercedes does the same thing but responds to a downshift as if it was a lift?

There are also reports about Alonso saying the McLaren would be the fastest car if the engine had any power - but then working at F1 margins it might be easy to come up with a chassis that seems above excellent when underpowered but not so great when the power becomes available.

Perhaps he is describing how things might be if they were different. If you see what I mean.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...ith-more-power
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Old 27 Aug 2017, 00:19 (Ref:3761799)   #684
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Its like taking something flat out with a moped that you couldn't take flat out with a GP bike.
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Old 27 Aug 2017, 00:55 (Ref:3761806)   #685
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...ith-more-power

As Keke was fond of saying, if my aunt had balls and a moustache, she'd be my uncle.
I was privileged to have met Keke, at the 1986 British Grand Prix. It was the last British Grand Prix to be held at Brands Hatch.
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Old 27 Aug 2017, 05:33 (Ref:3761842)   #686
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Its like taking something flat out with a moped that you couldn't take flat out with a GP bike.
Perfect comparison
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Old 27 Aug 2017, 12:24 (Ref:3761935)   #687
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Its like taking something flat out with a moped that you couldn't take flat out with a GP bike.
Well, seeing how he's dealing on the Kemmel straight, I'm rethinking my previous message. It really is like that, isn't it
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 08:15 (Ref:3762249)   #688
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Honda says there were no issues with Alonso's engine, and are not sure why he retired.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...ne-spa-946201/



No issues??
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 08:26 (Ref:3762254)   #689
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Honda says there were no issues with Alonso's engine, and are not sure why he retired.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...ne-spa-946201/



No issues??
Lack of horses?
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 08:55 (Ref:3762259)   #690
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Well if it's true Fred parked a healthy car, I don't begrudge him, he's stuck with it a long time, there's only so much you can take
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 12:56 (Ref:3762320)   #691
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If it's true, it's massively unprofessional. The team works long and hard to put that car out there, whatever its faults, and then the multi-million Euro superstar just decides he can't be bothered? Outrageous.
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 13:19 (Ref:3762328)   #692
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"I'm at my highest value yet"
"I'm comfortably beating my rookie teammate, who was superfast in GP2"
"I've never raced better"
"In a better car, I'd win easily"
"My car is what it is, I'm not bothered to just get a finish, what my team is desperate for"

that's not even his radio messages, that's his press talk. all talking himself up, while degrading the others. It's Fernando Trump, I'm telling you.


His radio messages this weekend were deplorable. he was talking bad about the car, the team, all race, but when théy try to give him usefull information it's: "no radio, all race, please" and "I don't care, really".

I get that it's frustrating, but I don't see how he's making himself useful to the team that way. If you're gonna call this race a test, finish the damn test already. Give the team plenty of useful data. Or at least give your seat to someone who will do the job.
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 13:44 (Ref:3762336)   #693
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It is a little unprofessional to park it, but he does seem to make sure to compliment the chassis and team and did so in the media pen after retiring. I like to think he's making public shows like parking it and radio transmissions like "gp2 engine" to embarrass Honda, not the team.

I really hope McLaren field an IndyCar for him next year and bring him back to f1 if/when their car is competitive. Seems like any move to another team he makes will just end with that team in similar states while the McLaren Honda magically comes good. Seems his luck.
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 14:13 (Ref:3762342)   #694
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Originally Posted by marcel82 View Post
"I'm at my highest value yet"
"I'm comfortably beating my rookie teammate, who was superfast in GP2"
"I've never raced better"
"In a better car, I'd win easily"
"My car is what it is, I'm not bothered to just get a finish, what my team is desperate for"

that's not even his radio messages, that's his press talk. all talking himself up, while degrading the others. It's Fernando Trump, I'm telling you.


His radio messages this weekend were deplorable. he was talking bad about the car, the team, all race, but when théy try to give him usefull information it's: "no radio, all race, please" and "I don't care, really".

I get that it's frustrating, but I don't see how he's making himself useful to the team that way. If you're gonna call this race a test, finish the damn test already. Give the team plenty of useful data. Or at least give your seat to someone who will do the job.
I couldn't agree more. He is the antithesis of a team player, and, for me, the contrast is starkest with Schuey, who always, ALWAYS lived by the mantra that we win together and we lose together. Michael would no more have parked up a healthy car than he'd have flown to the moon. Remember France 1997? His car expired from pole on the formation lap. Did he publicly slag off the team? Of course not. Alonso simply lacks class.
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 14:31 (Ref:3762345)   #695
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If it's true, it's massively unprofessional. The team works long and hard to put that car out there, whatever its faults, and then the multi-million Euro superstar just decides he can't be bothered? Outrageous.
I get it. The Honda engine has continued to underperform. Honda screwed up. He has every right to not be happy. But, he has no lack of opportunity to complain privately and even "smartly" in public (which he usually does in post race interviews). But the in the moment stuff (radio rants and parking a healthy car)... I agree... It is massively unprofessional.

The situation for him sucks, but frankly he should suck it up. He knows the performance situation when he gets in the car, so how can he be so outraged on track? I guess someone can say he is just showing "passion" and being a "racer". I call it childish. Someone should bend him over their knee and give him a good spanking.

I am sure McLaren is putting up with his antics just because they want to retain him. I would love to see him be successful in the car and to win again, but frankly I am tired of him. At this point, I don't care if he stays or leaves. Maybe this is because I also manage people and I wouldn't put up with that level of drama if I was his boss.

Richard
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 15:08 (Ref:3762350)   #696
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he was talking bad about the car, the team, all race, but when théy try to give him usefull information it's: "no radio, all race, please" and "I don't care, really".
I have never heard him say anything bad about the car or the team.
It's always related to the Honda-part, never the McLaren-part.


I am not convinced he 'just parked it'. The team knew he was coming in to park it, they were waiting for him in the pitlane.
If there was nothing wrong, wouldn't they have asked him why? They have lots of telemetry, so I assume they too must have noticed something.

Honda said they didn't find any issue in the engine.
That may be true, but that doesn't exclude
* that they may have failed to find the problem (even it that possibility is slim)
* that there may have been another issue that wasn't engine-related (gearbox?, ....) but caused the engine to not perform like it should
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 15:14 (Ref:3762352)   #697
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I get it. The Honda engine has continued to underperform. Honda screwed up. He has every right to not be happy. But, he has no lack of opportunity to complain privately and even "smartly" in public (which he usually does in post race interviews). But the in the moment stuff (radio rants and parking a healthy car)... I agree... It is massively unprofessional.

The situation for him sucks, but frankly he should suck it up. He knows the performance situation when he gets in the car, so how can he be so outraged on track? I guess someone can say he is just showing "passion" and being a "racer". I call it childish. Someone should bend him over their knee and give him a good spanking.

I am sure McLaren is putting up with his antics just because they want to retain him. I would love to see him be successful in the car and to win again, but frankly I am tired of him. At this point, I don't care if he stays or leaves. Maybe this is because I also manage people and I wouldn't put up with that level of drama if I was his boss.

Richard
Again, I couldn't agree more.
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 15:44 (Ref:3762359)   #698
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they found nothing wrong other then the obvious and recurring multi season problems i assume.

question though about penalties for the next race...if you stop with an engine/gearbox problem does that result in a reduced penalty for the next race or does it make no difference given they are already over their season allotment?

anyways mixed feeling about if he intentionally parked it or not.

for sure there is an issue if a professional driver just gives up in a race like this but given whats going on with Honda im not sure i find 'intentionally parking' an unsurprising turn of events.

on the other hand, i am more surprised that Honda were so quick to rule out an engine issue and failed to cover for Alonso and Mclaren...seems like ruling out an engine issue will only create more controversy, conspiracy and negative headlines for Honda.
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 15:57 (Ref:3762361)   #699
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... frankly I am tired of him. At this point, I don't care if he stays or leaves. Maybe this is because I also manage people and I wouldn't put up with that level of drama if I was his boss.
Doesn't that count for most drivers, when circumstances don't go their way?
* Vettel when his car isn't competitive (especially last year)
* Hamilton when he thinks he is disadvantaged (see last year)
* Verstappen (both father and son) when the Red Bull breaks down
* Red Bull management against Renault (especially last year)
* Grosjean

That said, I'm not so sure I like the way these radio messages are transmitted.
I think some are broadcast more often than other.
Is that because of the 'drama' aspect, or just because the other don't ever say something that's worth making public?

How many times do we hear: Hulkenberg, Ericsson, Wehrlein, Stroll, ... ?
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Old 28 Aug 2017, 16:00 (Ref:3762363)   #700
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Exactly that - the messages that are broadcast are the ones deemed best for the audience.....
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