Just how good was Damon Hill?

[coppice]

I'd say he was bloody quick actually and even Senna wouldn't have made that Brabham any faster . Damon's flaw , I think , was that he thought too much - and that's what makes him such a compelling writer. Plenty of people get peachy drives in F1 but don't deliver quite as much as we hoped - Dave Walker , Stefan Johansson , Eddie Cheever , John Miles , Reine Wissell , Jochen Mass and Juan Pablo Montoya to name but seven ...

[chunder]

I would hardly rate Montoya in the same class as those you mention, he won a fair few races and challenged for the championship at some level.

People seem to ignore the 94 season and downgrade his achievements for not winning the title. He was taken out by a ruthless assassin type, the type Damon certainly is not and never was. And them team he was competing largely against was accused of cheating in numerous areas.

So I (in my head) discount the 9 title for Benetton as it was achieved through very dodgy means!!

[coppice]

Yeah , you might be right ; but there is still a lingering feeling that somehow he could have done better. Last saw him in a NASCAR race I went to - underwhelming , but very different discipline of course.

So I will substitute Zanardi in my list - great in Indycar and not so great at all in F1 . (yes, yes, very brave and inspirational figure etc before I get letter bombs)

[S griffin]

Montoya certainly did more than the overratted Ralf. Yes Ralf won more in their stint together at Williams, but he inherited one from Montoya in 2001, JPM's debut season and Ferrari were too dominant in 2002, yet Montoya still finished above Ralf that season, despite Ralf winning the one race for Williams. Fact is Montoya was more prepared to go with it and contray to belief more consistent, as Ralf had too many off days where you wouldn't have noticed he was racing

[chunder]

JPM was also one of the few drivers out there who was not one bit intimidated by Schumacher, which is to his enormous credit as he was at the height of his powers when he came into F1.

Never sure why Zanardi was so awful at Williams, such a great driver in CART and in his one off F1 drives earlier on. The car was not that bad, he just never got on with it or grooved tyres I guess. Similarly to Damon and Villeneuve, who never got on with them aswell as some.

[Razzzor]

I wonder if Damon's consistency might have allowed him to win the 1997 title instead of Jacques? Jacques didn't exactly have a smooth season and very nearly lost it to the inferior Ferrari. Damon was probably in a very comfortable zone by 1997, with plenty of experience behind him now and having the dog off his back as defending champion.

He put in some good drives that year. By 1999 he says his passion was no longer in it, but would his motivation been much higher if he weren't driving a pos car and was instead in the Williams as a 2-time-champion. Williams probably would have been better in 1998 with his input as well.

I bet Frank Williams wishes they left him in the car instead of bellyflop-of-the-decade-Frentzen.

[Razzzor]

Re Montoya, the difference is Ralf came into F1 as Michael's little brother. Montoya came in as the next great FAST and aggressive driver from America after Villeneuve took F1 by storm.

It might be a long time before we get another from Indycar after Zanardi, Da Matta, Bourdais all disappointed.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I bet Frank Williams wishes they left him in the car instead of bellyflop-of-the-decade-Frentzen.

But then HHF nearly won the title after he left Williams?

Clearly he wasn't a bad driver and equally clearly he did not get on well with Williams!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Re Montoya, the difference is Ralf came into F1 as Michael's little brother. Montoya came in as the next great FAST and aggressive driver from America after Villeneuve took F1 by storm.

It might be a long time before we get another from Indycar after Zanardi, Da Matta, Bourdais all disappointed.

Got to give them all credit for trying, they had nothing left to prove in America.

And I agree on HHF, he needed a team that could support him when things weren't going well, which is why he nearly won the title

[BSchneiderFan]

Bourdais was a real disappointment. Four-times champion in the States, admittedly against a depleted field, but just showed nothing in F1. And Red Bull, like SPECTRE, does not tolerate failure.

[S griffin]

He did have bad luck for sure. Engine blowing up in Australia, caught out by the rain in Spa, stalled on the grid at Monza and then getting that ridiculous penalty in Fuji. All when in the points

[chillibowl]

when did HHF almost win the title?

despite a couple of wins and podiums, my memory of the 99 season still has him well short of the title.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

when did HHF almost win the title?

With a second place in 97? Of course that is FAR from almost winning the championship! Given TGF was DSQ and HHF was 39 points behind teammate JV at the end.

Richard

[chillibowl]

right! 97 doesnt count. even 99 is suspect, imo, in that TGF's broken leg may have also flattered HHF's points total.


was reading up on HHF on his wiki page and on it it says that after Senna's passing, SFW approached HHF for that seat but HHF chose to remain at Sauber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz-...2.80.931996.29

cant say i recall ever hearing that before, but it is an interesting 'what if' scenario to think about 'what could have been' had HHF taken up that seat with respect to Hill's (and JV's) time at Williams.

[matherto]

Frentzen was one of four in the race for the 1999 title.

Should've been Hakkinen's but he treated it as his to lose.

Irvine obviously took him to the final round, aided by Schumacher first breaking his leg and then coming back to 'support' him (definitely didn't at Suzuka).

Frentzen and Coulthard were there in the battle up until that Nurburgring race in the rain when they both retired. Frentzen had won the race before and was driving really well at the time.

I do really wonder the thought process behind Damon's Arrows move in 1997. Even though Williams kicked him out and he was getting on a bit his stock was still high as arguably the second quickest guy around but then I suppose he'd never have been teammates with Michael and McLaren were fine with Mika and David so perhaps he had no real choice?

A post above claimed that the 1998 Williams might've been a better car with Damon in it. I doubt it given the year old Renault engines badged as Mechachrome and the fact Damon didn't get on with grooved tyres particularly well. The FW19 was the last of Newey's influence at Williams so it was almost inevitable the FW20 wasn't going to be as good regardless. Patrick Head admitted he and the rest of the design team had made incurable mistakes with the car, would Damon have been able to point them out before they were made?

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

With a second place in 97? Of course that is FAR from almost winning the championship! Given TGF was DSQ and HHF was 39 points behind teammate JV at the end.

Richard

Frentzen could have won the title in 1999. It would have needed a bit more luck than he ever seemed to have, but it was a crazy year.

[spider]

I remember reading long ago that Ron Dennis offered Hill a drive for 98, but Damon didn't accept the monetary terms offered...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Frentzen could have won the title in 1999. It would have needed a bit more luck than he ever seemed to have, but it was a crazy year.

No doubt 99 was a good year for HHF and I generally liked him, but I think it would have taken a massive amount of additional luck for him to be WDC that year. If fact while he had some bad luck (retiring from good positions), he probably still came out ahead in the "luck" category that year. Only Irvine was more reliable than him and the field is littered with retirements including five (!) by the eventual WDC. Not to mention the exit of Schumacher for a number of races due to injury. If you remove races where HHF, Irvine or Hakkinen retired, you see he beat them only one out of eight full match ups. They had the measure of HHF. It would have taken a miracle for him to be WDC that year.

Richard

[Gingers4Justice]

Never understood the "he worked hard and out-performed better drivers" argument that some of our sport's greats seem to receive, as if their achievements somehow count less because they didn't rely on natural talent to succeed.

Unless you're always talking about pure natural talent, then hard work, luck, intelligence and determination are all part of the package in my opinion. It's true that the drivers with insane levels of natural ability are the ones that capture our imagination, but at the pinnacle of any sport, that is simply not enough on its own.

That's been true of any era of Formula One and even the early days of Grand Prix racing before it. The history of the sport is littered with supremely talented drivers that have been out-foxed by cunning rivals of lower natural ability in terms of pure driving.

In my opinion, you can compare drivers of different eras. You judge them on how well they raced against their rivals, how they coped with pressure and adversity, and maybe even what they did for their teams and even the sport while they raced.

At the final reckoning, the best measure of assessing a driver's ability is their results. Damon Hill is a world champion, and although he's not the best, he's a member of a very exclusive club.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by matherto

I do really wonder the thought process behind Damon's Arrows move in 1997. Even though Williams kicked him out and he was getting on a bit his stock was still high as arguably the second quickest guy around but then I suppose he'd never have been teammates with Michael and McLaren were fine with Mika and David so perhaps he had no real choice?

I remember an interview with Damon where he said that McLaren offered him some ridiculous per points/per race based salary that he felt really insulted by.
Think he had an offer by Jordan as well after Irvine left for Ferrari, not sure what the deal with that was.

[S griffin]

He was actually linked with Benetton, McLaren, Ligier (later Prost), Jordan, Sauber and Stewart for 97. No one even saw the Arrows move coming...

[alc59]

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...club-talk-show

Worth listening to.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by alc59

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...club-talk-show

Worth listening to.

I just finished watching and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for posting. I can't wait to read his book now.

Richard

[coppice]

It is sublime- but do not expect the usual racing driver biog; it is far, far more complex and personal . I reviewed it on speedreaders.info if you want to see more.Hope you enjoy the book as much as I did .

[chunder]

Fabuous stuff, excellent portrayal of a man who worked his butt off, knew what he had and did it toe th maximum.

Fascinated by his views on the money involved, and how ridiculous it is, a real breath of fresh air at times Damon.