BTCC vs V8 Muscle Car series (in oz)

danccooke · 22 Mar 2005, 05:19 (Ref:1258596)

Peoples,

Myself and my bro were watching the V8 series on Sky earlier and ended up (as usual) in an argument, my brother has a passion for the Holden HSV and thinks it was designed possible by God himself, however i digress. the question.

On a lap for lap basis which would be quicker, the V8's or the BTCC watching on telly they do look quick in a straight line, but cornering speed looked hampered by there weight. I was trying to say it would be a close run thing, but my brother and his singlemindedness refused to even contemplate things like braking for corneres etc etc.

your views to help settle and argument would be helpful, obviously it is hard to gauge when neither race on the same circuit ever (to my knowledge).

Please try not to be judgemental or Bias to your favourite of the two series.

Cheers

Dan

Kicking-back · 22 Mar 2005, 07:22 (Ref:1258632)

Depends on the track.

On an open fast track the V8 would be much quicker.

On a tight and twisty track, the BTCC would be closer to it, although the added power of the V8 would make it quicker probably.

Laptime doesn't mean one series is better than the other though - both produce good action.

Rombles1 · 22 Mar 2005, 08:23 (Ref:1258662)

Quote:

Originally Posted by danccooke

Peoples,

.... my brother has a passion for the Holden HSV and thinks it was designed possible by God himself, however i digress. ....

I think HSV is a good argument for the existence of a God!

danccooke · 23 Mar 2005, 00:39 (Ref:1259368)

Kicking_back, by no means was i saying one of these series was better than the other, i think they are both fab, i am a tin top racing fan, any and all. just trying to work out which were quicker.
but thanks for the views though, still undecided myself though.

DavidStHubbins · 23 Mar 2005, 08:17 (Ref:1259530)

In 1998 the V8's were 5 seconds faster than the 2 litre Super Tourers around the Bathurst track in qualifying. That's a track with a few very long straights which would favour the V8's but there are some tight and twisty bits too. Overall though it is not a conventional race track like the modern ones which are filled with gigantic hairpins etc which would favour the handling of the dinky 2 litre machines.

Rombles1 · 23 Mar 2005, 11:42 (Ref:1259672)

Maybe we need a one-off World Series to answer this? The top 3 teams from each of V8SC, BTCC, DTM, and whoever else wants a go (NASCAR maybe?), racing in one race in each of Australia, UK and Germany....

I'd drive a fair way to see that!

mixxer · 23 Mar 2005, 13:31 (Ref:1259772)

Some figures for you to look over:
BTCC 1150 kg's with approx 280 HP vs V8's 1350 kg's with approx 630 HP.
BTCC max RPM ?, V8's Max RPM 7500
Both use 6 sp trannys not sure on ratio's (I'm sure you guys know that anyway), non sequential H pattern in the V8's with fixed ratios and 4 different rear diff ratios.
BTCC use front 6 piston 343mm disc, rear 4 piston 280mm, V8s use 6 piston 375mm front and 4 piston 343mm rear discs.
Both cars use fully seam welded body's built around a CAD chassis.
BTCC cars use a 60litre fuel tank, the V8's 120litre
BTCC 17" x 9" wheels, V8's 17" x 11" wheels

Something I had for a while will give you the idea on costs for V8's
Costs as of 1997 for a Holden team.
Car Part Replacement / Servicing Required Price
5 Litre Chev pushrod engine - Rebuild required every 2000 to 2500 km $65,000.00 -plus
Clutch - new $25,000.00 per rebuild
Chev Block - 12,000 to 15,000 km $5600.00
Crankshaft - US made 12,000 to 15,000 km $3,000.00
6 Speed Australian Hollinger Gearbox - Servicing every 1000 km Gearset $4500.00
Triple Plate Carbon Clutch - Every Meeting $7,900.00
Tailshaft -Australian built - Service every 1200 km $5,000.00
9 inch Diff - Ford based Service and crack test on a regular basis $550.00 approx.replacement value
Axles - Harrop - 3000 km $750.00 each
Brake Pads - Every Meeting - $850.00 per wheel
Brake Rotors - Test on regular basis $700.00
Heavy Duty Radiator - US or Australian built Service and check on a regular basis $550.00 to $1900.00
Chev Alloy Heads - Replace at 12,000 km $11,000.00 per pair
Pistons - Replace every 5,000 km $1800.00 per set
Camshafts - Replace every 2500 km $1,500,00 to $2,000.00
Fuel Cell, pumps filters, fittings etc - Service and Test on regular basis $5,000.00 new
Motec Drivers Instruments - Test on regular basis $4,200.00
Mag Wheels - Crack test on regular basis $1500,00 each
Heated Front Windscreen - Replaced 3 times a season $400.00 each screen
Bridgestone tyres - Replace when worn out $450.00 each
Complete Race Commodore SupercarV8 - Replace when worn-out, superseded or crashed $270,000.00 to $320,000.00
All prices are in AUD and were correct in 1997.
Dunlop has replaced Bridgestone as the supplier of the control tyres

Whats better or faster, who knows now but when the Aus Super Tourers Championship was running, the V8s had quicker average lap times on all circuits.

Hope this helps

JMeissner · 23 Mar 2005, 13:41 (Ref:1259784)

The Super Tourers produced around 300 - 330 BHP with a rev limit of 8500.

JMeissner · 23 Mar 2005, 13:46 (Ref:1259793)

Rydell took poleposition 1998 with a time of 2m.14.9265s in a Volvo S40 Super Tourer. The current lap record for V8 cars are 2m.06.8594s right? So around Bathurst the Super Tourer is behind a V8 car in speed. But I think it would be different if we would go to more "mickey mouse" style tracks.

redshoes · 23 Mar 2005, 13:47 (Ref:1259795)

The gap might vary depending on the circuit but I would be very surprised if a current spec BTCC Tourer would ever be quicker than an Aussie V8Supercar.

JMeissner · 23 Mar 2005, 13:47 (Ref:1259796)

Even around Knockhill?

mixxer · 23 Mar 2005, 13:58 (Ref:1259806)

Some more info
In the 98 V8 race at Bathurst, Craig Lowndes took the pole with a 2:09.8945
the same year the Volvo driven by Rydell was on pole at the 2L Bathurst with a 2:14.9265.

Here's site that you may be interested in if lap times are your thing :
http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?

Craner Curves · 23 Mar 2005, 13:58 (Ref:1259807)

The V8 would probably murder it on the straight. All that power and RWD traction on the uphill straight compared to a FWD car with about half the power.

mixxer · 23 Mar 2005, 14:00 (Ref:1259810)

Sorry for the double up on the laptimes, the 2 finger style I use for posting took so long others had already posted.

danccooke · 24 Mar 2005, 03:30 (Ref:1260365)

cheers for the help guys, i am so not going to tell my brother, i hate him being correct, in fact it is not the being correct it was the single minded, refused to even think about the BTCC car, so thanks for your open mindedness.
still would love to see a BTCC vs V8 round brands hatch indy circuit, think that would be interesting.

cavvy · 26 Mar 2005, 22:57 (Ref:1262593)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rombles1

Maybe we need a one-off World Series to answer this? The top 3 teams from each of V8SC, BTCC, DTM, and whoever else wants a go (NASCAR maybe?), racing in one race in each of Australia, UK and Germany....

I'd drive a fair way to see that!

Irrelevant but interesting (me only ?) the quickest tin top down Conrod Straight at Bathurst is a Nascar at 319 Km/hr - quickest V8Supercar is Seton in a Ford at 301.
The Paul Stubber 1969 Camaro did 298 in the Historics last Bathurst.

**GTRMagic** · 26 Mar 2005, 23:17 (Ref:1262601)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

The V8 would probably murder it on the straight. All that power and RWD traction on the uphill straight compared to a FWD car with about half the power.

The issue was straight line speed... the Volvo S40 was doing 265-270 km/h flat strap, while a current model V8Supercar with controlled gearing, can max out of 292km/h... (more this year thanks to a change in diff ratio)

I dont think too many cars would be as quick as a V8Supercar at Bathurst... they are almost designed for that place alone.. and all the rest of circuits are just a bonus

kmchow · 27 Mar 2005, 00:50 (Ref:1262648)

On a side note--over an endurance race, would the V8s and ST cars be more equalized? A V8 supercar is faster, but doesn't it also use more fuel? Could the V8 build up a big enough time gap to make up for the reduced fuel efficiency? A ST car is more powerful than the current S2000 or BTC class cars?

racer69 · 27 Mar 2005, 09:05 (Ref:1262743)

You would still have to drive a Super Tourer flat out to have any hope over a long distance race against a V8. Remember also the V8s are built with endurance in mind, whilst Super Tourers were built with shorter races in mind, meaning reliability would be marginal, whereas as the last couple of V8 1000s have shown, you can drive a V8Supercar flatout all day no worries.

Why try and have match races between different formula's from different countries with each set of rules having individual aims, it just doesn't work.

It would be much better to just have a common set of rules worldwide......

gts300 · 27 Mar 2005, 09:27 (Ref:1262754)

The last time they ran together at Bathurst was ages ago, 1994 to be precise.

http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...0/1994.ARDC.E5

There has been development in both camps since then but from memory the Diet Coke and B&H BMW's were as good as any 2 litre car so being bold I'd suggest that the result would be the same.

Likewise comparing NASCAR to Aussie V8's is equally flawed, primarily designed to turn left and go fast. Their road course specials might be an interesting match up!

mixxer · 27 Mar 2005, 10:33 (Ref:1262785)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gts300

Likewise comparing NASCAR to Aussie V8's is equally flawed, primarily designed to turn left and go fast. Their road course specials might be an interesting match up!

Nascar (no matter what chassis they used) are severly hampered by a lack of brakes thanks to the small size rims they use, both Super Tourers and V8's would leave them behind easily.

redshoes · 27 Mar 2005, 10:38 (Ref:1262791)

The Bathurst comparison is using SuperTourers. Remember current S2000 and BTCT-spec cars will be slower than ST.

kmchow · 27 Mar 2005, 23:44 (Ref:1263242)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gts300

The last time they ran together at Bathurst was ages ago, 1994 to be precise.

While they didn't race together at the same time, you could compare the times that ST and V8 supecars ran separately at Bathurst from '97-'99?

kmchow · 27 Mar 2005, 23:45 (Ref:1263243)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

You would still have to drive a Super Tourer flat out to have any hope over a long distance race against a V8. Remember also the V8s are built with endurance in mind, whilst Super Tourers were built with shorter races in mind, meaning reliability would be marginal,

Didn't BMW build special endurances/Bathurst spec engines that were more endurance friendly? OTOH, doing that wasn't cheap.

mixxer · 28 Mar 2005, 02:16 (Ref:1263291)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmchow

Didn't BMW build special endurances/Bathurst spec engines that were more endurance friendly? OTOH, doing that wasn't cheap.

Yes, and they were less powerful than the sprint versions

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