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Old 16 Mar 2008, 03:24 (Ref:2153127)   #76
mountainstar
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mountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by JohnSSC
Thanks, MS.

Amar, Penske "dominated" and then couldn't qualify for the 500! Thats racing. You could also argue that even in a spec series, Newman-Haas dominated as well. The bottom line is however you write the rules, the possibility exists that one team will dominate. I tend to look at it as an opportunity to "raise the bar" rather than to dumb things down.

Taking nothing away from Star Mazda or IPS or Atlantics, but these are all exciting to watch. What they lack though, is that "innovation" part that allows one to do more than "tweak" the car and actually develop a package that is better than the other "packages."

I thought it was really cool way back when to stand in Thunder Valley at Mid-Ohio and hear the Cosworths and the Hondas when Honda first came into CC. Variety is good.
Yup I think expanding rather than contracting is the way to go. You might save a penny now but cost yourself a dime in future revenue.

Today I was at Sebring and it really was quite interesting to see the different cars and engine formulas and how it all worked together quite well. By comparison, it will be next to impossible or just plain impossible for me to watch the irl with it's ugly dallara and horrible sounding honda engine. Same with Nascar. Actually the odd thing is I'm more interested in the drivers and the driver aspect of motorsport more than the cars, but if the cars are plain terrible, I can't stand to watch at all, no matter what the drivers are.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 12:01 (Ref:2153489)   #77
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I'd say put a horsepower limit of 800hp but how you get to that is entirely up to the teams. Then you'll see all sorts of different engines.
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Old 16 Mar 2008, 13:26 (Ref:2153622)   #78
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The cool thing about the 12 Hour at Sebring (I watched a fair amount on the telly) was that the P2 cars used their combination of lighter weight/handling/fuel efficiency to take advantage of the "faster" P1 cars when those cars had to spend time in the pits.

Fernandez put on a heck of a show late, but I digress...

To my way of thinking, this is what IndyCar needs: some room in the rules to allow for different car types and different strategies. More displacement gets more drag/weight; less displacement gets less drag/weight - or something.

If the point is to "save money" by making your top-tier racing series a spec series, then what is the point to having the series at all when everything from formula Ford to Atlantic is a spec series as well?
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Old 26 Mar 2008, 21:44 (Ref:2162453)   #79
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I do very much agree with having variety.

I thought though, that I would point something out. The economic argument is at least two-fold. There is of course the concern to keep costs in check so you have a series that is affordable to enough competitors to make a decent grid. The other portion is perhaps even more problematic however. Sponsors, teams, manufacturers: they all want/demand results, and quick results at that. That's probably an even bigger challenge to overcome. We are in the era of instant access and gratification. Nobody wants to wait for their team to come up with the next innovation. No front-running sponsor is going to find it particuarly acceptable to have to run mid-pack until the team they fund sorts things out to get back to the front.

On a more positive side not though, I would definitely say that what the ALMS and LMS demonstrate as far as variety is very encouraging.
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 07:09 (Ref:2162725)   #80
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I have no problems with any of the feeder series being a spec formula. That is when it is really needed to keep costs at a reasonable level to allow young drivers to compete. And as with a spec formula a large portion of your results comes down to driver ability which gives the top level an indication of what kind of driver they will be investing in.

For indycar though, there must be a way somehow to set up the rules to allow however many number of chassis manufacturers to participate. Just maybe cap it so that individual teams can't develop the car themselves. The chassis manufacturer (after consulting with their teams) has to submit developments to the league.

As for engines, well set the rules and open the door to all. eg. We are going to run turbo V6 engines on ethenol, all welcome.
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Old 27 Mar 2008, 17:49 (Ref:2163230)   #81
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They need to lower the cost of competing is this series so capping the development would be a good thing. Why don't someone buy the rights for the Raynard chassis. Those chassis was good to look at and was fast as well. They was unlucky that Cart went bankrupt. For the engines they should limit it to 750hp.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 07:50 (Ref:2163624)   #82
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I like having different chassis and engines, too. But don't you also run the risk of having some select teams continually dominate? This may sound melodramatic because the IRL isn't close to this, but what I hate about Formula 1 is that every race weekend it's only a very select few teams that win. After awhile it makes for boring watching.

What I liked about Champ Car was that out of all of the racing series out there, they gave even lower-tier teams a chance to be competitive. Yes, Bourdais kept on winning championships, but teams like Rusport and Team Australia kept challenging. Having the same specs most likely fostered that competition.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 10:02 (Ref:2163715)   #83
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So how cheap do we have to make it? No offense, but why not use a bunch of old Spec Renaults or Formula Super Vees?

This is supposed to be a top tier series. I would agree that the feeder series should be inexpensive to run in order to encourage the new talent coming on and get then significant seat time.

If you want to keep things "equal" or "cheap" then maybe the teams should not own cars at all - the drivers could just show up and have one issued to them randomly like at a kart track.

Look, part of the excitement is to see what the teams do to make their car better than the next team's cars. Levelling playing fields and keeping things cheap just takes the team aspect out of it and most importantly it dulls the competitive edge.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 13:28 (Ref:2163833)   #84
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This is supposed to be a top tier series.
Quite right JohnSSC, good post
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 15:02 (Ref:2163905)   #85
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John:
Remember what we have now are youts, even in the US who are so used to SOMEONE else picking up the bill, that they assume it not fair to force competitors to either spend what it costs or leave till they can.

This is just another result, in the US of the liberal edict, everything is someone else's fault, so attack those who are capable of bucking the system. They do not fit in.
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 21:04 (Ref:2164130)   #86
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Amar7605 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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John:
Remember what we have now are youts, even in the US who are so used to SOMEONE else picking up the bill, that they assume it not fair to force competitors to either spend what it costs or leave till they can.

This is just another result, in the US of the liberal edict, everything is someone else's fault, so attack those who are capable of bucking the system. They do not fit in.
Bob
Bob,

I know what you are saying. What is the point of having competition if everything is equal and fair? I feel that the root of competition is to face the challenges that you have and overcome them. So, in the case of the lower teams, their goal is to be as competitive if not more so than the upper teams. It's an adult league and nothing is handed to anyone.

If I was the head of an upper-eschelon team, I wouldn't want to dumb-down my operations that I've worked so hard to build so that the competion can be fair.

For those of us who understands racing and the spirit of competiton I am sure that we all can agree that the challenge of the lower teams are to be greater than they are. But for those casual fans, they may see things differently.

BTW, I'm 27 so I may be one of those youths you're talking about! :-)
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Old 28 Mar 2008, 22:48 (Ref:2164202)   #87
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You're not alone Amar. I have very much an "old school" attitude (look at my alias), and I'm only 21 years old.
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Old 29 Mar 2008, 11:26 (Ref:2164420)   #88
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Bob, while I don't agree with you on the politics part, I definitely hear what you are saying! Not embarrassed to admit to being 50 - and so I think I have seen a thing or two in racing during that time.

When I dabbled in racing, the idea was that you would find some way to be competitive. If someone had bigger $$ at hand (and that does NOT always mean they are going to be faster!), then you had to find ways to compete. At the top levels, I want to see the best at their best. Heck, when Foyt and Mario and the Unsers were at the top of the game everyone was gunning for them. The whole grid was looking for ways to beat them. What you did not hear was talk of "leveling the playing field" or "keeping things equal" or any of that tripe. To a lot of folks, beating these guys under artificial circumstances (rules changes or spec series rules) would have been a let down. They want to beat the best at their best. Period.

If you want "fair and equal" then hook up the Playstation or X-box and have at it. Me, I want to see the dominant team/driver fight to stay dominant and the teams/drivers that aren't fight to BECOME dominant.
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