WTCC: SEAT-boss responds to diesel criticism / Diesel discussion

[werner]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Given 5 minutes and two bottles of red wine, any fool (yes, even me) can draft a set of rules for rorty-snorty, fire-breathing, opposite-lock-friendly, prototypes... but who can afford them? Even DTM, that German bastion of extremes, has gone for common components, like NASCAR has done...

2 bottles in 5 minutes?! I knew Brits can drink a lot, but I thought that only included warm beer...

[JMeissner]

Mario Thiessen says the rev limit is not enough:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=2307

[werner]

Well, negotiating with the FIA while developing an engine that might not be entered, that is costing a lot of money. And I believe that BMW even hopes that it doesn't have to enter the diesel.
FIA, please, please, please, make rules and stick to them for at least a year!

[JMeissner]

Priaulx wants a diesel:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=2337

[duke_toaster]

Proof we need to lower the pressure permitted on diesels and ban them for 2009 or 2010.

[Andrei]

I tought that after the Valencia race, we will struggle to ban FWD petrol engines...
Come on, first race back in Europe and the ballance is not looking quite the same like in south/middle America.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Proof we need to lower the pressure permitted on diesels and ban them for 2009 or 2010.

Really? I think it's more proof of that BMW still can't match the pace of their petrol with their diesel with the current regulation. If they could, it would already be in WTCC instead of being used only as some kind of leverage in discussions.

Now, lets just hope the FWD Petrol cars don't win one more weekend, or we will end up with banning them as well for 2009 or 2010. Or?

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Proof we need to lower the pressure permitted on diesels and ban them for 2009 or 2010.

That comment is proof of how silly comments people can make against diesels. I can't get over the stupidity of banning a car because it doesn't make enough noise. Because that must be the reason that you're screaming it, all other issues can be solved by adjusting rules?

Maybe we should make it a BMW only championship, because apparently anything that's faster than a BMW is considered to be too fast and needs to be slowed down.

[JMeissner]

Who has said the only problem with diesels is the lack of noise?

[Bramzel]

Why else ban them when the problems can be adjusted with proper rules? (if there are problems already, because I think the whole fuss about diesels is strongly over exaggerated and fed by the wrong sentiments).

[JMeissner]

Why ban them? Why add complicated rules that changes inconsistently to rules that already have problems?

[stedevil]

I already wrote in this thread why they should not be banned and why more engine types should be added.

If anything should be banned it is the use of Naturally Aspirated Engines running on Petrol. That has already had 80+ years of racing development and is an evolutionary dead end. Hell, the engines in the Chevrolet and Ladas are 20 year old. That is proof that the huge amount of money ploughed down into NA petrol Engines still have only moved it forward by the minisculest of amount in that time. Lets spend the money where it makes sense instead.

[JMeissner]

Well new engines or not, the current way is not working with the different regs, dispensations and changes - IMHO.

[werner]

@stedevil: It depend on what your goal is in motorracing. If it is to develop cartechnology you're 100% right. If your goal is to create interesting races, then having to use such old techniques is a good thing.
When it for instance costs you a bunch of good engineers and e20mln to improve the car with 0.2s/lap, a company might consider spending that on the best drivers they can hire instead of the tech-development. The result is that the best drivers fight the championships with cars that are very equal in performance.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Well new engines or not, the current way is not working with the different regs, dispensations and changes - IMHO.

And you think banning things is the option? Why not immediately ban FWD as well then, and hatchbacks. Then you really have an uncomplicated championship with equal cars.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

@stedevil: It depend on what your goal is in motorracing. If it is to develop cartechnology you're 100% right. If your goal is to create interesting races, then having to use such old techniques is a good thing.

Yes, but you also need to realize who is paying the bill for eg WTCC, Car companies, and what they are interested in.

There are 2 main reasons for them to participate (in fact the reasons motorsports once began)
A) Marketing
B) Development

In a racing series where you only use "old stuff" things will be cheaper, but since you only will be using the companies marketing budget you also have less money available vs if you have synergy effects between relevant (road car) R&D and marketing.

Today WTCC are struggling with 2 main problems, few brands and unstable rules. Since nobody has any real interest in spending much money on the already dead horse (2L NA petrol engines) fixing the unstable rules via banning the diesels as well as continue not letting in eg E85 cars (Volvo eg has been waiting several years for the promosed E85 regs to appear) will cause LESS interest & money from car companies.

In the long run, a lot of money & many manufacturers in a racing series will also be benifitial for the viewers and in turn for the survivability of the series.

[JMeissner]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

And you think banning things is the option? Why not immediately ban FWD as well then, and hatchbacks. Then you really have an uncomplicated championship with equal cars.

Because this is adding to the already too big differences.

Yes, I would like to see all cars having the same drive train as well, but its a bit more difficult to do with the current S2000 regs compared to not allowing diesel.

[dj4monie]

Only Martin's post has any sense thus far...

People are up in arms because of the dominating finish of SEAT in Mexico, it was a revelation and that's all it was.

The BMW's were faster over a total lap in Brazil, but the extra TORQUE not HORSEPOWER that diesels provide (you can't regulate that, its the nature of the power plant) allowed them to get to terminal velocity quicker than a gas/petrol car.

BMW was still building speed at the end of the straight and only reached top speed at the end, as it was geared for that.

They haven't dominated in BTCC either, just one race weekend and only two races both at Donington and Plato won at Truxton, hardly dominating performances in the best two Tin Top championships.

Only BMW hasn't won thus the *****ing has begun. Only Matt Jackson has seen the checkered flag...

Now they want diesel power, Mario Thiessen just dregs going back to the Bean Counters and ask to expand the budget to develop the diesel engine for S2000 rules, since the 1 series turbo-diesels were built for mostly "Club Racing"

Nevermind all the additional testing because the TD has different shift points and obviously the car puts down seriously low end torque, so your driving style has to change a bit.

I think its great.

Motor Racing for 100 years has been about gasoline power, why not extend that out so other markets can develop. The idea of a "performance diesel" is still oximornish to most people...

Add to its excellent finish at the Nurburgring 24 this weekend, perfect testing grounds...