Audi says ... change!?

[Umai Naa]

The cars in most cases, are built by the factory as a ready to race unit.

[Umai Naa]

Even in ST, the factory teams were sub contracted race shops. Williams for Renault, TWR for Volvo, etc.

Even Audi out-sourced the race prep in most championships, regardless of building every chassis themselves in Ingolstadt.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Proper touring car racing is common floor plans, control components and options for control engines????

I meant cars that look right, sound right and move about a fair bit!!!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Even in ST, the factory teams were sub contracted race shops. Williams for Renault, TWR for Volvo, etc.

Even Audi out-sourced the race prep in most championships, regardless of building every chassis themselves in Ingolstadt.

Yes that's true in many cases, although BMW ,Alfa and to a lesser extent Fords were pretty much full in house with their faithful race prep teams running the cars at the events as was always the case in any if their saloon car race programmes.

[Beages]

[QUOTE=Compromised;3614014]Problem is I think you'll find Audi, BMW, hell most GT3 manufacturers would have a similar attitude to Mercedes - why devalue your brand by competing against "lesser" car's who will in all likelihood beat you (see Nissan, volvo).

Once the current fully developed 5.0L's are replaced with turbo V6's, its back to an even playing field. The advantage is gone. Id say a GT3 engine would have a good head start on Holden for instance.

[velly4]

GT3 engines are very very different though. Some of them are detuned road car engines.
No way could you just slap them in a gen2 chassis and race

[Compromised]

I still don't understand why as a manufacturer, you'd compete in GT3, in a field of cars whose road going equivalents go for on average six figures, only to bring that engine/bodyshape to race Supercars, where, to the uniniated consumer watching on TV (who thinks Supercars resemble road going cars), your $600000 sports car is neck and neck down conrod with..... a commodore??

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Compromised

I still don't understand why as a manufacturer, you'd compete in GT3, in a field of cars whose road going equivalents go for on average six figures, only to bring that engine/bodyshape to race Supercars, where, to the uniniated consumer watching on TV (who thinks Supercars resemble road going cars), your $600000 sports car is neck and neck down conrod with..... a commodore??

nah, your 600,000 sportscar is passed by a commodore down conrod, its over the top and in corners where they make your speed.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by Compromised

I still don't understand why as a manufacturer, you'd compete in GT3, in a field of cars whose road going equivalents go for on average six figures, only to bring that engine/bodyshape to race Supercars, where, to the uniniated consumer watching on TV (who thinks Supercars resemble road going cars), your $600000 sports car is neck and neck down conrod with..... a commodore??

It worked well for Nations Cup....oh, wait...

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by peckstar

nah, your 600,000 sportscar is passed by a commodore down conrod, its over the top and in corners where they make your speed.

After the Supercar parity squad take to your GT3 bodyshape/engine, I don't think there will be any real difference, anywhere, hence the "neck and neck" comment.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Compromised

After the Supercar parity squad take to your GT3 bodyshape/engine, I don't think there will be any real difference, anywhere, hence the "neck and neck" comment.

ok fair point, missed that

but isnt it the case that any manufacturer says im getting beaten by a comeptitor, either can we make our car go faster or we leave.

The continual problem with manufacturer based championships.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by peckstar

ok fair point, missed that

but isnt it the case that any manufacturer says im getting beaten by a comeptitor, either can we make our car go faster or we leave.

The continual problem with manufacturer based championships.

Very true. But what makes this different (and to me quite interesting) is that it seems like Supercars Gen2 is a step towards GT3 style cars in a way - different bodies, different engines etc racing against one another, which seems good in theory. But say you're Nissan - why would you throw your GTR into Supercars where win, mid pack or back marker you're still racing your $200000 supercar against glorified grocery getter's. You and I know its not that simple, but does the average Joe at home know? Not sure, but that's the gamble you'd have to take as a manufacturer.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Very true. But what makes this different (and to me quite interesting) is that it seems like Supercars Gen2 is a step towards GT3 style cars in a way - different bodies, different engines etc racing against one another, which seems good in theory. But say you're Nissan - why would you throw your GTR into Supercars where win, mid pack or back marker you're still racing your $200000 supercar against glorified grocery getter's. You and I know its not that simple, but does the average Joe at home know? Not sure, but that's the gamble you'd have to take as a manufacturer.

It might be that a manufacturer running in GT3 could take their exisiting engine and put it into a more sedan type body shell to race in Supercars Gen2. For example, Audi might use their GT3 engine from the R8 in a RS4 Gen2 Supercar, Nissan might use the GTR engine in an Altima or an Infinity etc. The GT3 engines would probably be a bit down on power off the shelf but I would think that adjustment could address that.

Like you, I find it unlikely that any manufacturer (or the series for that matter) would want to have mixed fields of Gen2 and GT3.

[leothedrummer]

Nissan GTR, BMW Z4, Merc SLS, McLaren MP4, Lambo Gallardo, Audi R8 and.......Honda CR-Z, Subaru BRZ and Toyota Prius?



I think there's a little too much worrying and overthinking going on. If you create a series that is compelling enough for lots of people to watch and get excited about with a reasonable cost v results equation, manufacturers will want to get involved, simple as that.

Then there was also the Italian Superstars series, where the Commodore (HSV) competed against the likes of BMW M3/M5, Merc C63, Jag XFR, Porsche Panamera and Maserati Quattroporte.

And the Chev Camaro runs in GT3 alongside Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc and that's just a two door Commodore anyway!

As more people watch the racing, more manufacturers will want to get involved and if you make it easy enough for that to happen and for them to be competitive, then they will come!

[Compromised]

GT300 works, albeit with no factory teams. I love the idea of a "privateer" series, not sure Supercars management would though.

The Chev Camaro is racing GT3 that's true, but that's more a case of it joining a series that balances it competitors cars, majority of which happen to be exotic sports cars. Quite the tantalizing prospect for Chev I bet - race your car against others worth three times as much in a parity series!

[leothedrummer]

So is (V8) Supercars a parity series or isn't it?

If it isn't, then of course new manufacturers will be put off, especially with how much money they would need to spend to get anywhere close to competitive.

And if it is a parity series, then they aren't doing a very good job of it (in specific relation to the new makes).

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by leothedrummer

So is (V8) Supercars a parity series or isn't it?

If it isn't, then of course new manufacturers will be put off, especially with how much money they would need to spend to get anywhere close to competitive.

And if it is a parity series, then they aren't doing a very good job of it (in specific relation to the new makes).

That's hard to answer.

There's a hell of a lot of control items but theres still some scope for good engineering to shine.

In relation to new makes, Kelly Racing is basically finishing where they always have been. GRM, if anything, are quicker, they are just missing reliability.

So to answer your question, Supercars is pretty much a parity series. Engine limitations, control chassis, control suspension, control chassis, tested and equalised aero etc all make for a more even series. Problem is though, you can't just expect to add factory backing (Nissan + Kelly's, Volvo + GRM) to mid pack runnings and expect to compete with T8/ Prodrive. These teams are the best in the game and have been for along time and with all the parity measures, its very hard to find gains. All that Nismo experience in GT500 or GT3 might not mean a whole lot once you get to Supercars and its unique rule set.

[TWRv12]

So the latest Ferrari GT3 is supposed to cost £550k

How could costs like that work?

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

That's hard to answer.

It is a difficult question indeed, but I think it's a discussion worth having. Do we want balance, variety and everyone in with a shot, or do we want it to have to be earned through trial & error and loads of money spent at the risk of one or two team becoming dominant, moving the goal posts and making everyone have to do it all again?

[JoestEver]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

So the latest Ferrari GT3 is supposed to cost £550k

How could costs like that work?

I think by comparison, Silhouette series like DTM cost about $400,000 per entry per year. COTF V8SC should be similar.

Edit: probably just per car, not a yearly figure. Cannot provide the source coz my memory is so poor.

[Bell_End]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

So the latest Ferrari GT3 is supposed to cost £550k

How could costs like that work?

And probably cost a bit more to repair than a v8.

[velly4]

GT3 is cheaper than V8 Supercars. Much longer service intervals and no constant engineering costs to try and find a tenth as you are buying a homologies car.
Engines aren't as stressed

What price have they got the build of a Cotf down to now? Last figures I heard were $750k

[Umai Naa]

One of the beauties of GT3 is that parts are available off the shelf from the constructor. Updates happen annually, with only the close-knit customer teams doing the development work during the season for everyone else.

Some teams are still using Audi R8s from the original batch, but running to the most recent specs. No ongoing R&D required, just buy what you need from the AudiSport catalogue each year.

[peckstar]

Yawn yawn

If gT3 cars are so good, why dont people watch them?

Sorry to bring up the elephant in the room amongst all this technical jargon based on theoretical numbers

14,000 people on race day at the 12 hour on australia's greatest track.

You put a Gt3 car in the wall and thats your weekend done

[velly4]

Give it a rest. Be nice if you could add value instead of constantly baiting people. It's a race that has only run for 5 real years. Give it time to build instead of comparing it to something with 60 years of history.
I remember when the V8s done a sprint round at Bathurst and they struggled getting 20,000 people.
What ever the big teams and drivers run in the crowds will follow.
I don't care what formula that they decide to run as long as the cars have different strengths and weaknesses unlike the current formula.