Stock Blocks in Formula One

[Oldtony]

Have developed an interest in finding out the history of the use of "stock blocks" in Formula One.
The last one I can be reasonably sure of was the GM Alloy BOP Block used by Repco as the Basis for the Repco Brabham. Developed by Charlie Dean at Repco as a quick, cheap and simple way into the new 3ltr Formula to maybe grab a championship while others were developing more complicated units like the BRM H16 and various V12s. It in fact grabbed 2 Championships, for both JB himself and Denny Hulme.
2 more that have been mentioned but I don't seem to be able to confirm are:
BMW used "weathered" 2 litre 4cyl production blocks as the basis for their 1.5ltr Turbo engines. Rumours credit that unit with between 1200 and 1500bhp in qualifying trim. If so huge output from a stock block
Renault are rumoured to have occaisionally used a production cast iron block for qualy in place of the alloy block as it was stronger and the weight penalty was not so important in Qualification sessions.
This one does not ring as true to me as the BMW story.
Another urban myth. Did the Gurney/Weslake V12 have any connection with the prototype work for the production Jaguar V12?
By the way please don't anyone mention this to Max or he will decide a "stock block" formula is the ultimate "road relevant" way to go

[SidewaysFeltham]

Surely some of the early 1950s Climax engines would qualify as Stock Block?

As would various others used in Connaughts?? (Lea Francis amongst them).

And the Vanwall, of course, originally utilised four Norton bike engine blocks gummed together!

[D-Type]

"... BMW started out using unmodified although lightened production blocks. The company's engineers discovered that high mileage blocks performed best, the ageing reducing th stresses within the metal"
Source: The Turbo Years by Alan Henry.

That is the main one as I don't think that Renault used production blocks.

Minor private entries in mainly non-championship races include:
Lotus-Ford
Lola-Ford
Cooper - Ford
Stebro - Ford
LDS - Alfa Romeo
Cooper - Alfa Romeo
Cooper - OSCA
Lotus - Borgward
Jennings - Porsche
Emeryson - Jaguar
Ferrari - Jaguar (the Biondetti special)
RRA - Jaguar (or Aston Martin - Jaguar)
Cooper - Bristol
ERA - Bristol
Frazer Nash - Bristol
Frazer Nash - BMW
HRG - Standard
Lancia - Marino
DB - Panhard
various BMW powered Eigenbau (German for Special)
Source: A-Z of Grand Prix Cars by David Hodges

And I'm sure there are others

[Oldtony]

Thanks DType. I am aware of some of the earlier ones. In fact you could say that the 4 cyl Coventry Climax was a "stock" firepump block.
Probably the last virtually all production engines in F1 were the Lotus Cortina units used in the 1.5ltr era. Frank Gardner for instance ran one in an F2 chassis for Wilment at the British GP.
With your moniker do you have any connections who can shed light on the urban myth about the relationship between the Gurney/Weslake V12 and the Jag V12?

[Frank de Jong]

There was a Cooper-Ferrari (GTO) in 1966 or 1967 IIRC. DB used Panhard engines, the Renault story is incorrect I'm sure.
I can't see any relationship between the Weslake engine and the huge Jaguar V12. The Weslake engine might have more in common with BRM or the stillborn Ford V12 from the 70's.

[D-Type]

Another one - in 1966 Mclaren used a 'de-stroked' version of the Ford Indianapolis engine which was in turn based on the Fairlane block.

I don't know any details of Jaguar V12s and can't say anything either way about any Weslake connection.

[Oldtony]

THank you gentleman!
I hadn't realised the McLaren conection with the Indy Ford. At that time the Indy regs gave a considerable advantage to "stock blocks".
I guess a lot of Ferraris over the years have had a pretty close relationship with their "for sale"road cars. I must admit I tend to discount them as they don't exactly fit the image of "series production" units. There was also a Cooper Maserati with the engine from a Maserati Sports car which I tend to think of in the same light.
With modern tooling it is easier and cheaper (comparatively) to produce limited number castings and forgings, or even to machine from a billet, so it is probably unlikely that we will see this again.

[johnh875]

Oldtony I would regard the Climax engine in the same light, production perhaps but not mass-produced (for cars at least)

[SidewaysFeltham]

Weslake had provided consulting services for many years to BMC on cylinder head design and gas flow: indeed, if you look at the rocker cover of 60s BMC cars you will usually see a rivetted on plate quoting the Weslake Patent numbers!

Thus since by association, some Weslake design was was inevitably included on the new Jag 5.3 L V12.

That said, both Munday and Hassan enjoyed a wealth of leading sports and race car engine design expertise dating back to the straight six twin OH cam days, including of course the legendary XK 120 and prior to that, (Hassan) Bentleys, when working for WO.

Nw the only confusion left seems to be the relationship (if any) between the Gurney-Weslake V12 engine and the Ford Weslake V12 of some two or three years later!

Weslake: 3 L 60 Degree V12 (Four Valves per Cylinder);
Designer Aubrey Wood:

Jaguar: 5.3 L 60 Degree V12 (Two Valves per Cylinder):

Designers: Harry Munday and Walter Hassan.

http://www.research-racing.de/weslake1.htm

http://www.allamericanracers.com/gur..._f1-story.html

[Oldtony]

Thanks Micheal, Great links, and that puts to bed the Urban Myth re Jag
If Aesthetics were all that was imortant the Eagle and it's Weslake deserved a much bettere level of sucess than they achieved. Both very beautifull pieces of machinery.
Had heard of the Ford V12 but didn't know any of its history.
Has been a really interesting excercise linking production engines with F1.
Thank you all, and if you think of any other links I would appreciate them.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Yes I agree about the looks.

A great shame that the Weslake-Ford V12 couldn't enjoy some greater development work: it may well have been a winner.

My engine builder, Bruce Rennie, for the Formula Atlantic I ran, used to visit Weslake often, as he used to rent one of their dynos.

What impressed Bruce was that the exhaust vents led out onto Romney Marshes and as Bruce said you could make as much noise as you wanted and even work "ghosters", as the only things you disturbed were sheep!

Noise being one of my problems, as my retail garage and workshops were smack bang in the middle of a shopping parade! And when the rolling road was working and I was tuning something juicy, the neighbours used to tick!

Often.......................................

[johnh875]

Wasn't the Jag V12 originally 4 valves/cyl, as seen in the XJ13?

[SidewaysFeltham]

Nope!

Two valve per cylinder. As I posted in the spec above.

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

THank you gentleman!
~At that time the Indy regs gave a considerable advantage to "stock blocks".
~

Not really. Lotus first ran a stock block Ford in 1963 in direct competition with the Offenhauser out-and-out racing engines. It wasn't until 1969 that they introduced a separate larger capacity limit for stock blocks, but I think they had to be pushrod, not OHC, engines.


Michael, are you sure about the XJ13 engine? Although it was also a 60 degree V12 it was a different engine from the later production one.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Michael, are you sure about the XJ13 engine? Although it was also a 60 degree V12 it was a different engine from the later production one.

I thought that was what I suggested earlier?

My understanding was that the XJ13 engine was a one-off designed at the time, purely for the doomed racing project.

Obviously, any later concept for a V12 would have drawn on the earlier experience.

Same really with the Twin Cam. The Le Mans winning Xk120s and subsequent C Types were 3 Litre (Class limit then).

Later engine derivatives were 3.4 L; 3.8 L; the dreadful 2.4 L; and finally the 4.3 L .

The later engines were either bored or stroked or both.

According to all I can find, the original 5.3 V12 was 2 valves per cylinder.

There was an experimental 4 valve engine built, apparently:

http://www.classicjaguar.com/v12engine.html

However, that is not really surprising, as all serious engine designers were by then considering both multi-valve engines and belt driven cams, which, of course followed racing development.

Belt drives overcame the classic noise problems associated with either chain or gear drive (which had always dogged OHC engines for production cars since the late 1920s!) and multi-valve cylinders overcame the space-limiting problems of good gasflow, as larger inlet valves required assymetric combustion chambers and thus created turbulence vortexes and flamefront issues. (Which is precisely why Harry Weslake's patented "Squish" designs used by BMC/BLMH were so successful!).

Most designers were working ahead of production!

Probably, the person who could have answered this question with total authority would have been the late Anthony Rivers-Fletcher, since he was a close personal friend of the late Bill Haynes and his wife "Dutch".

He and I were in correspondence just after Bill sadly passed away.

We will have to just keep digging into the archives. Unfortunately, so very much data has been destroyed after the Jag were sold to BLMH; then Ford.
Same sad comment re Dunlop, BMC itself (Think Riley; Wolseley; Austin; MG etc) and the rest.

Asset stripping and monetary greed have no interest in heritage, unfortunately.

Curiouser and curiouser, as the Walrus might have said...........

http://www.weslake.co.uk/

http://www.ntahc.org/modifiedhealeys...er/Delzer1.htm

[Oldtony]

Thanks Micheal. The piece about the V12 was fascinating. My first drive over the ton was in a Mk7 in 1956. Had delivered it back to the owner after a top overhaul and he suggested that we "try it out". I was 18 at the time living in country NSW and my dad was about the only mechanic within miles willing to lift the bonnet of a Jag. Unfortunately the reputation for unreliability that the marque gained at that time, (mainly Lucas electrics, cooling systems and corrosion,) has meant that they still do not get the market share they deserve in Oz.
Never had much to do with the V12 but was in awe of the TWR cars that ran Bathurst. Big heavy cars but they just seemed to be loafing.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Synchronicity, Tony!

My late Dad ran SS Jags prior to WW II: and an SS with a gasbag on the roof in the War!

Once peace broke out, he bought a MK 5 saloon: all walnut dash and door cappings: and then the first of a series of Mk 7s and Mk9s and it was in a Mk 7 that I first experienced the magic "Ton"!, driving over a totally deserted Bodmin Moor, Cornwall in the wee small hours. I can still recall the eery blue glow from the dash lights (Slight tinge of UV and brilliant white numerals on the instruments) and the quarter light vent smashing shut when I tried to leave it open!

[Al Weyman]

Was the Brian Hart F1 engine production based?

[Oldtony]

As far as I can ascertain Al the Hart F2 engines were based on the BDA (which was designed by Brian Hart for Ford) but by the time he got to F1 with Toleman the turbo units were built on purpose designed blocks and cranks. He also developed special versions of the Ford V6 that were used in Sports car racing. The later V8s and the V12 for Arrows and Minardi were designed from the start as F1 engines.
If you have any other info would be glad to hear it.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Sorry to differ, Tony, but I believe Brian Hart tuned the BDA, following on from his work on FVAs and FVCs. The original BDA (Belt Driven "A") was designed by Cosworth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth

Hart did develop an Evolution BDA of over 2 litre.

Hart's own F2 engine (420R) was a different beast. And it was this that was used, blown as the F1 Turbo engine used by Ted Toleman's team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Hart

Brian Hart used to supply me bits and bobs for FVAs and BDAs and the odd twin cam back in the early 70s. I could drive to Harlow and back in a couple of hours, then. Not now!

[Oldtony]

Could we both be right Micheal? I think Brian Hart was working at Cosworth at the time the BDA was being designed. I was given to understand that he then left them to continue it's development when it became "public property".
It is one of the great dissapointments in life that the name "Cosworth" no longer appears in Formula One, but to anyone who studies the history on the beasts It will always be up there as one of the biggest names, and hopefully will appear again in the future. The 2011 regs seem to invite new concepts in design although the major manufacturer involvement probably rules out independent operators. Maybe they should float the idea to Ford or someone like Hyundai. Who actually owns the company now?

[SidewaysFeltham]

Tony; I think what actually happened mirrored the Lotus Twin Cam.

In the case of the Twink, Lotus Developments designed and developed the MK I Cortina, with the Twin Cam modifications to a standard 1598 block: and the A brackets to the rear axle. (As well as Ally boot, bonnet,and doors and with some cars, ally rear quarter panels too).

Thereafter, Chapman and Ford fell out: as Chapman was always liable to do!

Eventually, Ford contracted to JAP to produce the Twin Cam engine for the later MK Is and Mk IIs: and Lotus contiuned to use the engine in the Elan.

In the case of the BDA, Brian Hart worked for Cosworth (as you state) but left to set-up his own engine business primarily for servicing FII FVAs.

Cosworth developed the BDA (Again on the standard FoMoCo block) for a sports version of the Escort, with the added objective of giving Ford a rally and potential race winner, the Escort BDA.

Thereafter Hart fettled and tuned BDAs, but didn't, as far as I can tell, re-design it until he developed his own later 2 litre version.

Thereafter, Hart developed his own engine, for F II, the 420R: and I seem to recall Hart also tuned and prepared FVCs (Two Litre).

Trouble now is it is over thirty years ago: which is pretty frightening!

[Gungebucket]

Yes! it was all quite a long time ago. Here are a few snippets that I can still remember with a degree of certainty. Cosworth started out in London under a railway arch. Early on there was Costin, Duckworth, Brian Hart, John Lievesley and later Jack Field amongst others. Brian used to drive a Formula Junior.

Lievesley went to Ford in around 1966 and was at Boreham in 1967/8 when I was there. Hart set up on his own way before the era of the BDA's and its derivatives. Lievesley concentrated on BDA based rally engines and Super Vee's but Lievesley continued to do all the valvegear designs for Hart. Hart produced BD 90mm bore aluminium blocks from about 1971/2... I was working with Lievesley then and had to pressure test them all. Ford eventually purchased the ali block design from Hart and they continued to be manufactured in Danbury Essex by Danbury Precision Tools (I think that was the name). I know of the 420R but have no first-hand information. Hart was also very successful with twin-cam based Formula B engines. Lievesley did the cylinder heads and valve gear for these. These were 1600cc twin-cams and I remember that the pass off figures were minimum 200 bhp. (In my days at Boreham 180 bhp from a 1600 twin-cam was talked about but rarely if ever seen!)

Harry Munday (spelling?) did the Lotus twin-cam design work for Lotus. The first engine was based on the 1340 cc Ford unit. When Lotus showed it to Ford Ford said.... ah, we have a new 1500cc unit... go away and do one of those. Harry Munday had the option to take a fixed sum for his work or take royalties on each unit... he did not think that many would sell so he went for the fixed sum. This was a decision that he regretted in later life!

Hey Ho time to stop the ramblings.

[Oldtony]

Thank you Gentlemen. Most informative. I hope one day someone will do the research and publish histories of the Ford 4s and in particular of Cosworth Engineering.
Can you give me any idea of the "ownership" of Cosworth now?. When Ford broke up the Jag/Cosworth F1 arangement I understood that Williams finished up with some degree of ownership, but I have not seen this confirmed.

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Thank you Gentlemen. Most informative. I hope one day someone will do the research and publish histories of the Ford 4s and in particular of Cosworth Engineering.
Can you give me any idea of the "ownership" of Cosworth now?. When Ford broke up the Jag/Cosworth F1 arangement I understood that Williams finished up with some degree of ownership, but I have not seen this confirmed.

Cosworth: The Search For Power was published a few years ago. i haven't read it, but I believe it mainly focuses on the DFV but to do so it would have to tell some of the BDA and FVA story.

I have a feeling that there has been a biography of Keith Duckworth but I'm not certain.

Sorry, I don't know the present Cosworth setup.