[FIA GT] Fia Gt 2010

[Sportscarguy08]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Ilike FIA GT as it is now, with GT1 and GT2 running together, with the Spa 24 Hours the highlight of the season with some G2 and LMS teams, but th foolish idea from Ratel to create a "World GT1 Championship" is simply crazy, the FIA GT must be European series, and has nothing to do with the 2 Americas and Asia !

I have to agree with this. The FIA GT how it is is an amazing series. To change that would be like changing the formula of coca-cola to something "new". The idea sounds neat on paper, but the world theory will be even more costly like it is in the FIA WRC (Pacific, Europe and south america stops). Personally I think Ratel is trying to revolutionize the classes that does not really need it.

Am I alone here.....???

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I doubt that very much, the IMSA really started to thrive when it added 100 mile sprint races to the schedule.

Such races leave no room for error, you go as hard as you can for as long as you can, period.
Of course with the "safety" yellows and such nowadays, they could turn a one hour race into a two hour parade lap snooze fest for "safety's" sake.

Bob

But it wasnt purely 100 milers, you still had the big races, Daytona24, Sebring 12 hours, Miami 3 hours, 6 hours of the Glen, that was the really big races. If the FIA World GT has 24h of Spa, some 3 and 4 hour races, and maybe a 6 hour race somewhere, then I would not mind if the other half of the callendar was 1 and a half or hour sprints. It adds diversity, and sprint races for the big boys can be very fun as long as it isnt exclusively sprints (Norsiring Sprint in the 80s, one of the biggest GroupC races!).


JAG, we all know you hate GT racing and thinks its a disgrace for Sportscar racing and love to pick at it as soon as you get a chance to, what I dont udnerstand however is why do you keep updated with it about everything, if you hate it that much? You only keep updated so you will have superior knowledge to enyone else so you can pick on GT racing even more here on the forum?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

The latest is that this FIA GT World Championship could consist of ONE hour races!

The US has 1 hour GT races already. It is call Speed World GT ( close to GT3 and Speed world Touring ( close to GT4)

Ok so the races are 50 min not one hour.

[duke_toaster]

Speed World Touring? IIRC they are a bit similar to S2000 touring cars/BTC-Touring ...

I don't mind a few one-hour races. After all, that's what BGT is made of.

IMO we need ONE GT class - basically GT3, as for protos keep the current LMP2 and keep LMP1 how it is other than coupes only. Then add an LMP3 set of regs for national series ... sensible?

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by Sportscarguy08

I have to agree with this. The FIA GT how it is is an amazing series. To change that would be like changing the formula of coca-cola to something "new". The idea sounds neat on paper, but the world theory will be even more costly like it is in the FIA WRC (Pacific, Europe and south america stops). Personally I think Ratel is trying to revolutionize the classes that does not really need it.

Am I alone here.....???

no you aren't
SRO & FIA boooh boooh !!
a single class in a sports car race how horrible it is

[JAG]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

JAG, we all know you hate GT racing and thinks its a disgrace for Sportscar racing and love to pick at it as soon as you get a chance to, what I dont udnerstand however is why do you keep updated with it about everything, if you hate it that much? You only keep updated so you will have superior knowledge to enyone else so you can pick on GT racing even more here on the forum?

I love GT racing, the ALMS was fantastic, while the LMS qalso had a fair few decent GT1 battles.

FIA GT was, well I won't go there...........

I strongly believe SRO should not be driving GT racing forward with a new GT1 format that neither the ACO or GT manufactuers appear to want.

Manufactuers have put together a sensible, cost effective, alternative, namely Aston and GM stepping into GT2, providing cars to compete with Ferrari, Porsche, Dodge, and soon, hopefully, BMW.

From what I've heard few in the sport, other than SRO, want the proposed GT1 class, or a World Championship for that matter.

SRO backed themselves into a corner, the LMS and ALMS is taking away major teams and media attention, it's also appealing to the gentleman driver market.

SRO hit onto a great idea with GT3, unfortunately rather than consolidating this class, and work on either nursing GT1 back to good health, or scrapping it altogether in favour of a single GT2 class, with the aformentioned manufactuer support, they appear intent on creating a new GT1 class, hoping lightning will strike twice and manufactuers will flood into the class like GT3.

IMO, it isn't going to happen.

If FIA GT focused on what it does/did best, 4hr endurance races (BPR days) aimed at gentlemen drivers with customer cars, backed up by an intersting GT3 support package, maybe they'd get back on track.

As it is, IMO, they're spreading themsleves too thin with GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT90 Revival and World/European/National championsips.

All this upheval, and for what?

If the manufactuers were listened to, we could have Porsche vs Ferrari vs Aston vs GM vs Dodge vs Ford (privateers) vs Spyker vs BMW within 12 months, with a unified set of FIA/ACO rules.

Who wouldn't want to see that?

As it is this is all dragging on because some within FIA GT believe they need a GT1 headline class and World Championship ststus.

Maybe someone should tell them LM/LMS/ALMS is the only sportscar 'World Championship' major manufactuers appear wlling to support at this time.

Or maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by JAG

If the manufactuers were listened to, we could have Porsche vs Ferrari vs Aston vs GM vs Dodge vs Ford (privateers) vs Spyker vs BMW within 12 months, with a unified set of FIA/ACO rules.

What says they will all race in FIA-GT? Or all in ALMS? They have expressed whiches to race in different series, just like we have in GT1 now Vette factory team in ALMS, Saleens only in LMS, MC12s only in FIA-GT (exept 2 races in ALMS) and so on.
Just cause we have 8 manufacturers saying they will/might enter GT2 doenst mean they all will, and it sure doesnt mean they will all race in all 3 series against each others. It wouldnt be any better then current GT1. We need a totally new set of rules that will last in the long run. GT2 is not the future.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

What says they will all race in FIA-GT? Or all in ALMS? They have expressed whiches to race in different series, just like we have in GT1 now Vette factory team in ALMS, Saleens only in LMS, MC12s only in FIA-GT (exept 2 races in ALMS) and so on.
Just cause we have 8 manufacturers saying they will/might enter GT2 doenst mean they all will, and it sure doesnt mean they will all race in all 3 series against each others. It wouldnt be any better then current GT1. We need a totally new set of rules that will last in the long run. GT2 is not the future.

Correct.
A set of rules in which spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to over come some contrived spec. does not determine who runs up front.

Not likely to happen, if GT1 goes away, that money will be diverted to GT2 or what ever thing is supposed to the top GT class.

[SALEEN S7R]

Agreed, all that would happen is that the current GT2 cars would eventually morph into something very similar to what we have now in GT1, the same thing happened with the current GT1 class which was originally called GT2 and then later called GT1, those cars now look very similar to the GT1 cars of the mid 90s.

JAG, as has been said everyone here knows your bias towards the ACO and that you dislike the way SRO do things at the moment. Thats fine but you have to understand that not everyone shares the same views as yourself. I too also agree with Porschefanno1 and bob riebe and think that SRO are heading in the right direction with the new GT1 rules.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

What says they will all race in FIA-GT? Or all in ALMS? They have expressed whiches to race in different series, just like we have in GT1 now Vette factory team in ALMS, Saleens only in LMS, MC12s only in FIA-GT (exept 2 races in ALMS) and so on.
Just cause we have 8 manufacturers saying they will/might enter GT2 doenst mean they all will, and it sure doesnt mean they will all race in all 3 series against each others. It wouldnt be any better then current GT1. We need a totally new set of rules that will last in the long run. GT2 is not the future.

We'll have x number of manufactuers in a single GT2 class providing customer cars that are affordable to a vast array of teams, including those stepping up from GT3, and those stepping 'down' from GT1.

There is no need to have out and out factory teams, just works support like Porshce, Ferrari, Aston etc. already provide to their customers.

It doesn't matter how you dress it up, NO ONE other than GM wants GT1, and even they are happy to move to GT2 for the competition.

Without manufactuer support your class is going knowhere.

Which ever is the top class will always see costs rise, but it is easier to keep tabs on GT2 costs, especially if the electronic stuff is cut back.

GT1 allows so many freedoms cars cost in the region of $1m, running and maintaining them is also much higher than GT2.

With a GT2 class ready to tak off if GM, BMW and Aston produce cars, it beggers belief why you would wish to create yet another class for even more expensive cars that few wish to race.

The answers staring you in the face, the ALMS showed a great battle in GT2 can take away the headlines from GT1.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by JAG

Maybe someone should tell them LM/LMS/ALMS is the only sportscar 'World Championship' major manufactuers appear wlling to support at this time.

sorry JAG but this year FIA GT was fantastic, until Zolder with great cars and teams, and about manufacturers, Ferrari is there with AF Corse, Porsche with BMS, AMR with BMS and Jet Alliance, Maserati with both Playteam and Vitaphone as factory backed...

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by JAG

Which ever is the top class will always see costs rise, but it is easier to keep tabs on GT2 costs, especially if the electronic stuff is cut back.

GT1 allows so many freedoms cars cost in the region of $1m, running and maintaining them is also much higher than GT2.

With a GT2 class ready to tak off if GM, BMW and Aston produce cars, it beggers belief why you would wish to create yet another class for even more expensive cars that few wish to race.

I really cant agree with you JAG, why try to keep costs at tab in a GT2 class running as main class that is very similar to the current GT1 regs, when we might as well could make a whole new set of regs with the emphasis on this very problem? "wish to create yet another class for even more expensive cars that few wish to race" We wont make a new class, we will replace a class with new regs, that hopefully will be even less exspensive then current GT2 and that every one wants to race!
Not everyone wants the GT2 regs either! They just need to find a set of regs that everyone agrees on, which by the looks of it is very hard, in the meantime they all say: "if you cant come up with a decent set of regs we might as well race the existing GT2 while we wait for you to make up your mind!" And thats what they are doing, but dont think that they like GT2 just cause of that, its just the best set of regs around right now!

[JAG]

It will be impossible to build GT1 cars that are cheaper than current GT2's, even more so if GT2 cuts out much of the electronic tech.

Why exactly do we need a GT1 class, current GT1's are only 3-4 seconds quicker than GT2's at most tracks.

There's no magical middle ground that would allow current GT1 speeds with GT3 costs, it isn't going to happen.

A compromise would be to allow 5% bigger GT2 restrictors and/or less weight, larger tyres, cutting the speed gap by a second or two.

I want to see Ferrari, Porsche, Chevy, Dodge and Aston competing with each other, the general public couldn't really care less about Saleens, Koinigseggs etc.

[PorscheFanNo1]

You're just not getting it JAG!

Why cant a new set of GT1 rules be cheaper then current GT2? Just cause its named GT1 doesnt mean it automaticly comes with a price tag of 1M£! Drop everything that is current GT1 regs from your brain, new GT1 wont have anything to do with with current GT1 regs (hopefully!).
If the current GT2 becomes the new format as you want, then it will most likely be named either GT1 or simply GT in ALMS/LMS/FIA-GT (cause why have a "2" after it if there isnt any "1" anymore) and by that the new GT1 is as cheap as current GT2, as its the same regs! Get it?

If you ge that, we can move on to this: Why not make a totally new set of regs that is cheaper then current GT2? Meaning more stock parts, less modifications, very similar to current GT3 regs, that already is cheaper then GT2, but still produce about 600hp, and then race those regs in a class named GT1. See, now you have a GT1 class cheaper then current GT1 and GT2! Was it that hard?

You dont seem to be able to see the difference between 'GT1 class' and 'current GT1 regs'. Theres nothing saying a GT1 class has to runt with current GT1 regs or anything even similar to it!

If you had said "It will be impossible to build GT1 cars with the current GT1 regs that are cheaper than current GT2's" I would agree 100%, but its not that what we are discussing, we're discussing a set of regs that will replace those regs, and theres nothing, NOTHING, saying they cant be cheaper then the current GT2 regs.


And I really cant agree on "There's no magical middle ground that would allow current GT1 speeds with GT3 costs, it isn't going to happen." either. GT3 isnt far off GT2, everyone knows that, and I think many (including Bob) can tell you right away how painfully slow those cars are in comparison to how high tech they are, remember, they are still slowed down by FIA a lot, with all sorts of different restrictors.

And with that said, I'm not even sure what we where discussing anymore...

[Pingguest]

Wouldn't it the best solution to keep the cars as much as possible the same as the stock versions? Why not banning any weight reduction and mandating the use of almost stock engines?

[AU N EGL]

Stock parts? hmmmm the manufacutres would have a very profitable field day replaceing all those stock parts every race or two. Many of the so called stock parts are ok for street use and some what ok for weekend club racers, but not a full season of hard racing.

The current GT2 cars of Porsche 997 and Ferrari F430 have their two respective cars quite well sorted out to not be restricted, or only very limited air restrictors to the cars wt and tire size of each car.

I wonder what the difference between a 997 GT3 road car one can buy off the dealer show room and the 997 RSR GT2 race car?? They look close but I bet that is about the same.


and a Stock engine would need to be rebuilt after every race. Heck race engines are rebuilt after every few races anyway.

[chunterer]

Why not run the classes to something like Group A, but perhaps reduce the number of homologated cars required from 5000, or whatever it was in the touring car days, to 1000 or something appropriate for sportscars but keep the other rules that were successful for that set of regs.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

You're just not getting it JAG!

Why cant a new set of GT1 rules be cheaper then current GT2? Just cause its named GT1 doesnt mean it automaticly comes with a price tag of 1M£! Drop everything that is current GT1 regs from your brain, new GT1 wont have anything to do with with current GT1 regs (hopefully!).
If the current GT2 becomes the new format as you want, then it will most likely be named either GT1 or simply GT in ALMS/LMS/FIA-GT (cause why have a "2" after it if there isnt any "1" anymore) and by that the new GT1 is as cheap as current GT2, as its the same regs! Get it?

If you ge that, we can move on to this: Why not make a totally new set of regs that is cheaper then current GT2? Meaning more stock parts, less modifications, very similar to current GT3 regs, that already is cheaper then GT2, but still produce about 600hp, and then race those regs in a class named GT1. See, now you have a GT1 class cheaper then current GT1 and GT2! Was it that hard?

You dont seem to be able to see the difference between 'GT1 class' and 'current GT1 regs'. Theres nothing saying a GT1 class has to runt with current GT1 regs or anything even similar to it!

If you had said "It will be impossible to build GT1 cars with the current GT1 regs that are cheaper than current GT2's" I would agree 100%, but its not that what we are discussing, we're discussing a set of regs that will replace those regs, and theres nothing, NOTHING, saying they cant be cheaper then the current GT2 regs.


And I really cant agree on "There's no magical middle ground that would allow current GT1 speeds with GT3 costs, it isn't going to happen." either. GT3 isnt far off GT2, everyone knows that, and I think many (including Bob) can tell you right away how painfully slow those cars are in comparison to how high tech they are, remember, they are still slowed down by FIA a lot, with all sorts of different restrictors.

And with that said, I'm not even sure what we where discussing anymore...

Nice fairytale.

Well if you want club racing so be it. If you want a series that is divorced from the pinnacle of Sports Car racing sure. But I thought that Ratel has back peddled to say that there will be parity with the ACO. And to race within the same grid with prototypes a certain level of capability is required and to acheive that and maintain it you can not run a club car! You can trim costs but you can not slash costs and maintain the level of performance required to participate at LeMans and subsequently the affiliated series. Someone is not getting it.... but it is not JAG!

L.P.

[PorscheFanNo1]

I seem to remember we had the almost exact same discussion 6 months ago or so, and I dont think we got anything clear out of that one, I'm not expecting to get it out of this one either as we all seem to think wastly different. All I'm saying is, it must be possible to build a car that can turn the same laptimes as current GT1 cars for less then half the price, and Ratel seem to think the exakt same thing (just look at the cost calculation he made for the now ditched GT3 based rules).

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

I seem to remember we had the almost exact same discussion 6 months ago or so, and I dont think we got anything clear out of that one, I'm not expecting to get it out of this one either as we all seem to think wastly different. All I'm saying is, it must be possible to build a car that can turn the same laptimes as current GT1 cars for less then half the price, and Ratel seem to think the exakt same thing (just look at the cost calculation he made for the now ditched GT3 based rules).

Yet they are now ditched! Hmm. Wonder why? Couldn't be that it was unrealistic in the first place? And the people who produce the cars refused to compromise themselves!(?)

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

I seem to remember we had the almost exact same discussion 6 months ago or so, and I dont think we got anything clear out of that one, I'm not expecting to get it out of this one either as we all seem to think wastly different. All I'm saying is, it must be possible to build a car that can turn the same laptimes as current GT1 cars for less then half the price, and Ratel seem to think the exakt same thing (just look at the cost calculation he made for the now ditched GT3 based rules).

Could you show us how that could be done?

I could put a new Katech 500ci 8.2L 600 bhp & 600lbft engine in my vette. Bet I could also hit 180 mph on Road America's front straight and the Moraine sweeps. Or Sebrings back straight, with a great BBK ( Not carbon Ceramics) and stop resonabley well.

Heck with My 450 bhp semi stock motor I replace enough stock or semi-stock parts as it is.

You might be able to build a GT1 phseudo car, but it wont be reliable for long. Not to mention changing all the parts every race do to wear.

No offence but put some numbers together and build the race car yourself. or go though the paddocks next season or call some teams and see if you can get some tours through there shops this winter.

Yes I agree some one is quite understanding the real costs of racing.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Fair enough. But saying we dont need a GT1 class as no new regs can be any better then the current GT2 regs is like saying USA dont need a new president cause he cant be any better then the governor of california anyway.

We dont know how those new regs will look like so no one can really say if we need them or not and if we are better off with the current GT2 regs running as top class instead. (which effectively will then become the new GT1 class and its the same thing and we'll be back at square one again)

The current GT2 regs has been around for how long? Atleast for 9 years anyway, and they are too similar and based on the same thinking as the current GT1 rules, so if GT1 isnt any good why is GT2 regs so good? I really cant see the logic thinking in that.

I still think we need a new set of rules based on a clean cheat of paper and not some sort of compromised GT1/GT2 regs, as GT1 has already been so compromised over the years, and I cant see any reason why GT2 wouldnt be the exact same deal.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

I still think we need a new set of rules based on a clean cheat of paper and not some sort of compromised GT1/GT2 regs, as GT1 has already been so compromised over the years, and I cant see any reason why GT2 wouldnt be the exact same deal.

Yes things ( politcal / economic / manufactures cars ) do change evey so many years. Back in the 1970s during the so called oil shortage <koff> engines became smaller fuel mileage went up.

in theory a clean sheet of paper would be nice, but a race sanctioning body, ( other then King Burney and FOM and the France Family and NASCAR ) can not really TELL manufactures what to do. They will just leave.

Ford just announced their own Mustang GT race series under the Grand AM banner. Sounds like they dont want to race with other cars, to showcase the Mustang. But if you want a GT3 mustang or GT4 mustang it will coast $15,000 extra over the $125,00 price Go figure.

Working with the Manufactures is very important in the rule making.

[AU N EGL]

Watching the NASCAR race in TXs. One of the things that NASCAR will do to reduce costs are reduce and or elimiate soo much race protocal that have nothing to do with the race it self. The PRE and POST race BS.

Would SRO be willing to reduce race prost race protocol?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Fair enough. But saying we dont need a GT1 class as no new regs can be any better then the current GT2 regs is like saying USA dont need a new president cause he cant be any better then the governor of california anyway.

We dont know how those new regs will look like so no one can really say if we need them or not and if we are better off with the current GT2 regs running as top class instead. (which effectively will then become the new GT1 class and its the same thing and we'll be back at square one again)

The current GT2 regs has been around for how long? Atleast for 9 years anyway, and they are too similar and based on the same thinking as the current GT1 rules, so if GT1 isnt any good why is GT2 regs so good? I really cant see the logic thinking in that.

I still think we need a new set of rules based on a clean cheat of paper and not some sort of compromised GT1/GT2 regs, as GT1 has already been so compromised over the years, and I cant see any reason why GT2 wouldnt be the exact same deal.

Nice response! Don't agree and can't force the point of view, so why not go xenophobic.

L.P.