What do you consider affordable GT2 racing?

[AU N EGL]

We have had several discussion about what is affordable racing.

Most were threads that wound up a weeee bit off topic, only to be slapped on the hand for doing so.

S0 my question is What is affordable GT2 racing? I am not asking what YOU THINK IT SHOULD COST?

What car and what do you think it really costs to purcahse and run a one car team for a full sesson? ALMS or LMS, Not counting LM24.
Lets say the team has the shop and transporters.

( put the links in too costs if you have them. Dont put down rumors, as everyone knows about rumors and back sides)

Car:
Engine:
Tires per race: how many and cost per tire
Fuel costs( which must be purchased from the event sponsor)
Ewbuild costs between races or every x number of races:

Team memebres average pay.
Figure 10 members per team.
Drivers Pay

[bil588]

Doesn't the International GT Open have GT2 cars with spec Dunlop tires?

http://www.gtsport.es/index.asp?pagina=gt-open&lang=en

[ss_collins]

Its should cost what teams are willing to pay - a lot of teams are in GT2 so I'd suggest its about right now - me? I'd have a prototype

[AstonGeoff]

We are talking motorsport here!

The first 90% of the costs will be 90% of the budget, the remaining 10% of the costs will be the remaining 90% of the budget. And no that is not a typo.

Surely the cost will always be what a team/individual can cough up or raise through sponsorship! I bet the costs for the 997 teams all vary wildly!

[AU N EGL]

Ok we know what a 997RSR, F430, Panoz and the new GT2 Corvette costs are.

What do you guys think a full season of racing would cost for a single car GT2 team?

any one car to put some numbers down? and where or how they came up with those amounts?

[JHamilton]

What is the cost of a Panoz?

I don't have any concept of cost over a race weekend, but I believe an "affordable" GT2 car would be less than $200,000 with spares package.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

What is the cost of a Panoz?

I don't have any concept of cost over a race weekend, but I believe an "affordable" GT2 car would be less than $200,000 with spares package.

Which is about 130 000€, that wont happend! Thats even less then a GT3 Cup... You barely get a 2nd hand road going 997 GT3 for that... And yet Porsche is considerd somewhat a low cost sportscar. And you want spares too?

What is the real cost of the 997RSR, F430, Panoz and the new GT2 Corvette anyway? Around 500k€ is that I've heard for a new car, which is about 730k USD.

[Francesco]

Porsche 480K Euros (2007 spec)
Ferrari way more than 500K Euros (i'd say even more than 550K euros 2007 car without latest spec engine and things like that)
Don't know about Corvette but i hope it stay a little bit cheaper than the Porsche as the road car costs less...

the realy bargain would be the Viper which should have a GT2 kit for "just" 150K euros so 180k "base" CC Coupè Viper + the GT2 "kit" just 330K Euros

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Francesco

Porsche 480K Euros (2007 spec)
Ferrari way more than 500K Euros (i'd say even more than 550K euros 2007 car without latest spec engine and things like that)
Don't know about Corvette but i hope it stay a little bit cheaper than the Porsche as the road car costs less...

GT2 Corvette ( Riley Tech) is $471,000 Plus engine

[Francesco]

making 30.000$ for an engine (maybe i made it a bit cheap?) you get 500.000$ which at this moment is less than 350.000 Euros... quite a bargain if it's competitive... and i bet it will be

[PorscheFanNo1]

So you can get a potential Championship winning GT1 car for less then a new GT2 997RSR or F430... And some people say GT1 is way too expensive and GT2 is the way to the future, how ironic...
Anyone remember that a McLaren GTR cost new?

[AU N EGL]

Slightly use GT1 2007 C6R #3 from P & M is $650,000

[canam]

From an operating perspective, GT1 and GT2 costs should be pretty much the same (Crew, equipment,, transport, entry fees, licenses etc). The big difference can be in the cost of the car and its running costs. From what has been indicated above, the costs of acqusition are roughly the same btu running costs and spares are different. Engine rebuild costs will, no doubt, be different (Aston vs Porsche vs Ferrari vs Vette). Additionally, it depends whether you are a 'team' (payroll) or just a group of mercenaries (pay per race). I would say that operating costs without accident damage is about $800k for a year.

If a team relies on paying drivers, what do you do on qualifying day if the money has not arrived? or...what do you do if the money has not arrived before the day when you have to load the car on the transporter and ship it 1500 miles? Ditch the paying driver??

There is one well-known driver 'hiding' in Italy (it is thought) owing to a large number of unpaid drives (and a number of embarassed team managers who believed the story that the money would come!!). One team is apparently owed circa $200k.

[RickP:Clio51]

The costs of car purchase are not key... as often (esp with a 911) there is a reasonable second hand bid for the cars at the end of the year.

The key is the cost of engine/gearbox rebuilds and spare parts... I'm not an expert on current GT2 machinery, but our old LMP2 car in 2004 cost about $2 per 1 second it was on the circuit in consumables and wear and tear. So without team costs/entries just tyres/engines/fuel/gearbox wear. And we were running as cheaply as possible and at the time had done the maths to prove we were running cheaper than a 911.

I had a pal about the same time and I think all in, (literally everything) his team running a 996 RSR were spending about $80,000 to $100,000 (assuming $2 to £1 here) per weekend to run 1 car for an LMES race over 1000km. They weren't front runners and they weren't on the more expensive Michelins... and this is 2004... not 2007.

[AU N EGL]

Thanks Rick - Good 2004 numbers. well not really but great to have numbers.



$100,000 per race x 10 races = $1,000,000
Plus 1/3 that for practice and qual = $330,000
one 24 hour race = $173,000
Plus 1/3 for practice and qual $50,000

Year $1.5 million for a euro team plus Car, Plus transporter, Plus salaries for team and drivers, plus shop space

We know Peterson / Khron team a few years ago spent $960,000 just for the LM24 ( travel to and from, plus the month in France and the race itself.

"affordable" is a relative term to the team.

Note:
so for a 24 hour = 24x60 x60 = 86,400 sec x $2 =$172,800 just for the race, not counting practice and qualifying time on the track.

[old man]

I think your figures are not bad for a regular team Golden, it was said that GruppeM in the 2005 season spent £2.5 million being the "factory" 2 car team. At that they only paid one driver out of their own budget (Sugden) the rest were loaned by Porsche and If I recall they were on factory Michelins so the tyre bill would not be that big.

Someone I know was asked £700,000 for title sponsorship of a works Aston for the LM24, drivers provided!

[AU N EGL]

Yes Old Man for an AVERAGE TEAM.

Many of the GT2 teams mention a budget of $2-2.5 million a year not including a car purchase.

I am not trying to be a PIA ( LOL I dont have to TRY to be that ) but some ppl complain about the cost of racing and that racing should be 'affordable.'

"Affordable" is a relative term. and that GT2 and GT3 race cars are NOT street or road going cars with a cage in. They are converted purpose built race cars.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Yes Old Man for an AVERAGE TEAM.

Many of the GT2 teams mention a budget of $2-2.5 million a year not including a car purchase.

I am not trying to be a PIA ( LOL I dont have to TRY to be that ) but some ppl complain about the cost of racing and that racing should be 'affordable.'

"Affordable" is a relative term. and that GT2 and GT3 race cars are NOT street or road going cars with a cage in. They are converted purpose built race cars.

Tom the quickest way to put this "affordable" schtick to rest, would be to find some numbers of top ranked or even average road race SCCA teams from the late sixtes to early seventies, and then adjust the amount spent for inflations.
I have little doubt that the resulting figures would leave quite a few "affordable" complainers in silence.

What has really changed is not the cost of racing, but the way racing is being run.
Bob

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I have little doubt that the resulting figures would leave quite a few "affordable" complainers in silence.

What has really changed is not the cost of racing, but the way racing is being run.
Bob

Very true Bob, Very True


SWGT here in the U S with a top level team ( 2007) was $30,000 per race per car.

[The Badger]

I reckon about 3 million euro is a fair bet for running 2 997 in GT2 , run well . But that would get considerably bigger if your talking about F430's !!!

That includes the cost of both cars as well . Am I close ?

[RickP:Clio51]

Depends on so many things... you haven't considered testing for example... I know most GT teams don't tend to bother... plenty of time to learn circuit when you are there etc... but as an example, had a buddy run in the Porsche Supercup in 2004/5 spent about $200,000 per year to run car. Then spoke to a team who had run at the front in 2003 (I think) and they'd run from a base in the UK (pretty silly for Supercup as lots of ferry crossings/ mileage etc) and they'd done some serious testing... and reckon they had spent $3mm to run 2 Supercup cars for a year!

You must note difference between running a LMES weekend, of which there are only 4 or 5 per year when the car is on circuit for 8 or 9 hours and a FIA GT weekend when the running is about half that at most... but there are more weekends.

If we stick to what we (I!) know, so LMES, I'd have thought you can run a 911 for £50k per weekend without real problems. So 5 weekends = £250k = $500k per season, so $1mm for 2 cars... plus trucks, car purchase/leasing and driver salaries (hahahaha).

Then of course, if you get to go to Le Mans, you have to add in that cost on top.... but it's a pretty exceptional weekend or month depending on when test day is/ do u stay there in the meantime etc...
Last time I was offered a drive there, 1 of 4 drivers in a GT2 they were charging about £40k per driver but that was 2005... told prices have moved on since then and this was not a front running car... So if we think of £40k * 4 drivers = £160k and assume we're running the car for 24h + 6-8 hours of practise = 32hours which is 4 times the running on our average LMES weekend, but then assume team only has to travel once rather than 4 times and tyres last longer at La Sarthe then we're not miles away from our £50k per 8 hours we were looking at earlier if we assume a front running car is costing about £200k to run in GT2 for that weekend.

So throw in some depreciation on the car/trucks and I reckon 5 * £50k + £200k for Le Mans + £50k depreciation = £500k or $1mm for the season per car.

[The Badger]

[QUOTE=RickP:Clio51]and driver salaries (hahahaha). QUOTE]

Yes mate .....all the way to the bank !!!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

So throw in some depreciation on the car/trucks and I reckon 5 * £50k + £200k for Le Mans + £50k depreciation = £500k or $1mm for the season per car.

£500k or $1mm season per car and ppl wonder why there arn't more teams.

again "affordable" is a relative term.

[old man]

In the FIA I would say that you cannot do it and run at the front for less than £1.5 million ($3.3 million at today's exchabge rate) and that is not including any driver salleries. With AF Corse and Porsche running pro drivers you will not win with "gentlemen". My info is that BMS simply refused to run a second works loaned car alongside Manu Collard as there was no money, just spares and drivers. No other team would take it on following the experience of Freisinger and GruppeM.

Running two cars is not twice the cost of running one but it is not far off and this year BMS struggled because they took Pirelli dollars who wanted to keep Michelin out of the Porsche factory effort. Scuderia Ecosse took the same tyre money and look at their season in comparison with AF Corse.

Affordable racing in GTs is a relative term but in my view the private entrant with one pro and a gifted Gent can simply not win, especially when the races are sprint races as in FIA. Much more chance for such a car in long distance events where reliability and relative "plodding" can and do win, eg: Panoz at LM 24, 2006.

Tech 9 did the best you can do this year with pro/gent in FIA and I would bet they spent £700k at least, any comments from Mr Edwards?