Do we need a new prototype championship?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The regs, as is, are a contrived farce, and another series with the same rules would be waste of time.

Such a farce that LMS is oversubscribed, and the ALMS has a growing grid, with significant interest from Manufacturers.

Now if the IMSA would simply tell the ACO to go away, we might, and I do emphasize only MIGHT, get something with some pizazz.
Bob

I'm not sure what you'd call pizazz. I saw some incredible racing in the ALMS this year, with the season concluding with a 10 hour race and a four hour race being decided by seconds. That's some pizazz.

Any set of rules, at any point will result in some degree of contrived racing. There is no such thing as a rules set that would do otherwise.

[Graham Goodwin]

And btw what does that point (again!) have to do with the question posed by this thread - Zero!

[Fogelhund]

The other prototype championship that we need to be healthy is the JLMC.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

And btw what does that point (again!) have to do with the question posed by this thread - Zero!

Well, Graham- my point was/is-another series of the same old-same old, would be boring to the point of being foolish; whereas the IMSA being A OTHER series with totally different rules IS necessary and would be very nice, at least for the US.

Their responses were mainly variations against that which I said, MOST of which is directly applicable to the original thread.

Now your blather is more wasted space attacking the posters, so take your own advice.

Bob

[SebringMG]

The US does not need another series as it has two good ones allready. Europe could maybe do with a P2 series or class running alongside the VdeV maybe for the older chassis to run in (ban current machinery maybe)...

[Jimmy Magnusson]

LMS is over-subsribed because everyone wants to race at Le Mans. Just reviving the FIA Sportscar Championship wouldn't achieve much, because people want that guaranteed LM24 spot.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Well, Graham- my point was/is-another series of the same old-same old, would be boring to the point of being foolish; whereas the IMSA being A OTHER series with totally different rules IS necessary and would be very nice, at least for the US.

Because the US can't handle not dictating everything to everyone? And if they can't, they make their own (NASCAR, IRL, Champcar, American Football etc)

Or am I now trolling???

Seriously though, LMP3 could work like GT3 does for FIA GT, as a more TV friendly alternative, with shorter races and full grids. It could work, because Radicals and Jades and Ligiers are very popular at the moment, and relatively inexpensive. Maybe even have an LMP4 for smaller engines?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Because the US can't handle not dictating everything to everyone? And if they can't, they make their own (NASCAR, IRL, Champcar, American Football etc)

Or am I now trolling???

We are dictating what to whom?

The US race scene needs the ACO, about as much as its personnel need hemrhoids.

But--- if the IMSA went its own way, those interested in the Euro scene could follow it on the internet, and the fans over here would not have to choose between GARRA, and ACO rules clap-trap.

With all the "its not fair" BS being bandied about it would be nice to be separate, or be "another" series, because the "its not fair" whiners wouild have to find something else to whine about.
Bob
PS--For P3 or GT3 one can already go to any SCCA National and probably see better competion, and more interesting cars--in the US anyway.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The other prototype championship that we need to be healthy is the JLMC.

I would agree!

L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Because the US can't handle not dictating everything to everyone? And if they can't, they make their own (NASCAR, IRL, Champcar, American Football etc)

Or am I now trolling???

Seriously though, LMP3 could work like GT3 does for FIA GT, as a more TV friendly alternative, with shorter races and full grids. It could work, because Radicals and Jades and Ligiers are very popular at the moment, and relatively inexpensive. Maybe even have an LMP4 for smaller engines?

Young Master,

Please do not fall in!

L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

We are dictating what to whom?

The US race scene needs the ACO, about as much as its personnel need hemrhoids.

But--- if the IMSA went its own way, those interested in the Euro scene could follow it on the internet, and the fans over here would not have to choose between GARRA, and ACO rules clap-trap.

With all the "its not fair" BS being bandied about it would be nice to be separate, or be "another" series, because the "its not fair" whiners wouild have to find something else to whine about.
Bob
PS--For P3 or GT3 one can already go to any SCCA National and probably see better competion, and more interesting cars--in the US anyway.

These dogmatic posts, regardless what the subject matter, get quite tiresome.

L.P.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The US race scene needs the ACO, about as much as its personnel need hemrhoids.

If the US dumped the ACO, the US sportscar scene and the LM24 would be far worse off.

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Young Master,

Please do not fall in!

My apologies.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

These dogmatic posts, regardless what the subject matter, get quite tiresome.

L.P.

Don't read them then.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Seriously though, LMP3 could work like GT3 does for FIA GT, as a more TV friendly alternative, with shorter races and full grids. It could work, because Radicals and Jades and Ligiers are very popular at the moment, and relatively inexpensive. Maybe even have an LMP4 for smaller engines?

Maybe an idea - maybe LMP3 and LMP4 could be used as national championship classes? Some form of prototypes alongside British GT might help it a little

[ss_collins]

So LMP3/4 as national classes, so whats wrong with VdeV and IMSA Lites?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

So LMP3/4 as national classes, so whats wrong with VdeV and IMSA Lites?

Sam, is there a British VdeV series? I know we have Sports 2000, but those cars are ancient. I think the idea behind LMP3 (which should essentially be VdeV/IMSA Lites!) is to offer some kind of easily set up cheap championship which can be run in most countries, and ready access to cars.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

So LMP3/4 as national classes, so whats wrong with VdeV and IMSA Lites?

What I was thinking - we already have LMP3 with VdeV and IMSA Lites and LMP4 is effectively the national and european Radical championships.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

btw Jimmy - Looking at the VdeV site they are launching it with a full schedule here in GB next year.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Is there a British VdeV series?

Yes, there is.

One idea is for an LMP3 category to be made and featured in VdeV, and it should possibly feature cars which can be upgraded to LMP2 spec? Like the Lolas, Courages, Domes and Pescarolo's which feature in both P1 and P2. That way a company like Lola can sell more cars by creating some kind of cheap(ish) upgrade package, which means it'll also be cheaper for a team to move up through the ranks. It also means a prize, such as an LM entry in P2, would be relatively easy to implement.

One issue with that, though, would be with engines and sizes and restrictions - as was pointed out to me earlier some of P2's naturally aspirated engines are quite a lot bigger than many of those currently in VdeV...

[ss_collins]

P3 is effectively VdeV and IMSA Lites.

The UK has Britsports (struggling), VdeV UK (too new to comment), S2000 (popular but slower), and Bikesports (effectivley P4)

The USA has C-Sports (bit like VdeV CN), D-Sports (very similar to Bikesports), VdeV USA (too new to comment but I'm not hugely hopeful), Lites 1 (2.3 Litre Duratec - around VdeV pace but centre seat), Lites 2 (centre seat and similar performance to bike sports), and Lites 3 (a low tech version of Lites 1)

Japan has a funny class for converted F3 cars - these make up the 'LMP2' class in the JLMC but also have thier own championship.

France has VdeV

Italy as its own popular prototype challenge (not sure of the regs but I think bigger engines than VdeV), and the Glorias (similar to Bikesports but one make)

Germany has an open prototype series with fairly small grids

And Radical has more series than I can be bothered to list

There are series I know little about in Portugal and Spain. Denmark is about to get a new one make series for coupes made by Aquila.

Thats the world as it is. No need for a new series but perhaps a need for common classes.

[Hugewally]

Need for common classes - yes...

[duke_toaster]

Just make LMP3 more of a glueing together of various classes. Allow IMSA Lites, VdeV and so-on cars with various balancing bits and bobs (weight, bigger or smaller air restrictor holes etc ...) and the same with LMP4.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Yes, there is.

One idea is for an LMP3 category to be made and featured in VdeV, and it should possibly feature cars which can be upgraded to LMP2 spec? Like the Lolas, Courages, Domes and Pescarolo's which feature in both P1 and P2. That way a company like Lola can sell more cars by creating some kind of cheap(ish) upgrade package, which means it'll also be cheaper for a team to move up through the ranks. It also means a prize, such as an LM entry in P2, would be relatively easy to implement.

One issue with that, though, would be with engines and sizes and restrictions - as was pointed out to me earlier some of P2's naturally aspirated engines are quite a lot bigger than many of those currently in VdeV...

no car that was succseful in p3 could be succesful in p1 and vice versa, imo; too much size/weight/aero etc difference.

[JHamilton]

The US sportscar racing market is more limited than Europe. We have two major sports car series and in my opinion can only support one. They both pull dollars and teams away from each other. There is a point in European sportcar racing where no additional series could be supported and the same effect felt here would be there. You really don't want to go beyond that point. The increased competition to even make races in Europe can only improve the quality of racing.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The other prototype championship that we need to be healthy is the JLMC.

Agree to.

Right now, if your a wealthy team owner, the ACO will find a place for you in P1/P2 in the LMS.

[ss_collins]

It seems to me that a lot of suggestions surrounding this LMP3 concept/series and mixing it in with P2 and P1 cars are from people who don't fully understand the concept of these cars

LMP1 and LMP2 are carbon chassis cars designed for professional racing teams to run, they are some of the most advanced and complex machines in the world. They all have to get through a fairly tough set of crash tests (I have a nice illustration of the R10 load pattern - I'll post it in the morning)
the cheapest of them cost in excess of 300,000 euro


"LMP3" is a term used for sub LMP2 prototypes, it has been bandied around by many (including me, to the point where I'm often credited with inventing it - not the case) these cars like the Ligier or the Juno are designed for amatuers to run and are mainly metal chassis (the Japanese cars and Panoz DP02 being the notable exceptions). On the whole the cost under 100,000 euro.

Racing them together is possible - see the Vallelunga Gold Cup, but in the current climate its pointless. What I would like to see is a LMS and ALMS support package to include a series based on the first season incarnation of Lites but with CN cars in Lites 1