[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Yes, but the development starts before the 2019/2020 season

And they're still imited to the 4 areas/components I mentioned. And most crucially the battery will remain a spec part supplied by McLaren. It is interesting why both Porsche and Mercedes have picked 2019-20 as the actual entry year... They shouldn't need that long lead up time as they don't have to make a whole car. Maybe this is also to buy more time to see where the series is going.

This also makes the claim about retaining the team and personnel is pretty suspicious. There's simply no way they need as much as personnel, neither to design or to run the actual team (I've watched many races. The paddocks are even tinier than in American street circuits).

Kind of ironic to quit a series for "lack of development scope" and then join another series with even more restricted scope? Maybe best to start accepting that the reason why they join FE is the same reason why everyone else has/is going to join: it is cheap (for now) and with spec chassis & battery for the foreseable future requires only minimal effort with maximum marketing ROI, because the series is going after entirely new audiences and not us traditional racing fans.

[chernaudi]

Andre Lotterer speaks about his thoughts on Porsche's program ending:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...hes-lmp1-exit/

Some points:

*Confirms that his contract is with Volkswagen Group as a whole, not just with Audi Sport or Porsche.

*He might try and do Formula E, which ironically he was opposed to racing there last year.

*He hasn't ruled out a return to Audi Sport for GT3 racing.

*Thinks that a modified form of DPI could be a possible choice for the ACO's top class and endorses the idea of the same basic car being able to do LM, Daytona, and Sebring in the top class.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Andre Lotterer speaks about his thoughts on Porsche's program ending:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...hes-lmp1-exit/

Some points:

*Confirms that his contract is with Volkswagen Group as a whole, not just with Audi Sport or Porsche.

*He might try and do Formula E, which ironically he was opposed to racing there last year.

*He hasn't ruled out a return to Audi Sport for GT3 racing.

*Thinks that a modified form of DPI could be a possible choice for the ACO's top class and endorses the idea of the same basic car being able to do LM, Daytona, and Sebring in the top class.

TBH, there wasn't much else he could say really......

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Lotterer

There’s no point hanging on to something that not there anymore.

He's a racing driver by profession. Good to see he isn't an idiot too.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...hes-lmp1-exit/

...

*Confirms that his contract is with Volkswagen Group as a whole, not just with Audi Sport or Porsche.

Does he? In that article?

I know it's one of your things that this is the case. However I very much doubt that there is a contract between "Volkswagen Group AG" and "André Lotterer". It'll probably be Porsche, which that article even suggests!

Frankly it is a mute point as, because they are sister companies, it is very easy to move between them either formally, informally, or whatever. They aren't going to sue themselves.

My point is there is nothing to see here. Whether it is VWG, Porsche, Audi, Skoda it makes no difference. So there is no significance in it being any one of those company names on the contract.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by insane014

It was Porsche's decision to spend that much money and barely beat Toyota who has 3 to 4 times smaller budget. Or someone was money laundering like crazy there in VAG.

Frustrating to keep reading things like this. Some German media and even VAG staff themselves hinted that Audi and Porsche spended around $150m, each, while Toyota's budget is between $75 to 125m

About Porsche's departure. It was expected and WEC already died a little when Audi left. Very sad to see that atrocious farce that is Formula E take away manufacturers looking for a cheap and easy way to create an eco friendly image to consumers around the world.

ACO might be guitly of a lot of stuff but, all in all, sportscar racing will always be a fragile sport because it appeals much less to the average person than things like F1 which creates tones of Lewis Hamilton's, Kimi Räikkonen's and etc.....fanboys that religiously follow it's series. Most people simply relate far more to other people(most people needs heroes) than to machines

WEC will continue to exist, though now we'll have to settle for only LMP2s and GTs, which is not so bad, even though the P1s were by far my main interest.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Artur

Very sad to see that atrocious farce that is Formula E take away manufacturers looking for a cheap and easy way to create an eco friendly image to consumers around the world.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by deggis

And they're still imited to the 4 areas/components I mentioned. And most crucially the battery will remain a spec part supplied by McLaren. It is interesting why both Porsche and Mercedes have picked 2019-20 as the actual entry year... They shouldn't need that long lead up time as they don't have to make a whole car. Maybe this is also to buy more time to see where the series is going.

This also makes the claim about retaining the team and personnel is pretty suspicious. There's simply no way they need as much as personnel, neither to design or to run the actual team (I've watched many races. The paddocks are even tinier than in American street circuits).

Kind of ironic to quit a series for "lack of development scope" and then join another series with even more restricted scope? Maybe best to start accepting that the reason why they join FE is the same reason why everyone else has/is going to join: it is cheap (for now) and with spec chassis & battery for the foreseable future requires only minimal effort with maximum marketing ROI, because the series is going after entirely new audiences and not us traditional racing fans.

I know noting of FE but aren't they supposed to loosen the regs progressively?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I know noting of FE but aren't they supposed to loosen the regs progressively?

There was a plan to open chassis and battery for development but that it dropped in 2016: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123119

Currently e-motor, inverter, gearbox and cooling are open and have been since the 2nd season.

This round of homologations means that the powertrains fall into line with the new cycle of homologation for the chassis and battery, which will remain standard over the course of three seasons, starting from Season 5 - 2018/19 - 2020/21.

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...s-homologated/

Without more specifics this can be understood that rules stay pretty much the same until 2021-2022.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by deggis

There was a plan to open chassis and battery for development but that it dropped in 2016: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123119

Currently e-motor, inverter, gearbox and cooling are open and have been since the 2nd season.

This round of homologations means that the powertrains fall into line with the new cycle of homologation for the chassis and battery, which will remain standard over the course of three seasons, starting from Season 5 - 2018/19 - 2020/21.

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...s-homologated/

Without more specifics this can be understood that rules stay pretty much the same until 2021-2022.

Ah! Thanks.

[Spyderman]

A retrospective of the Porsche LMP1 program in the WEC from RLM :http://www.radiolemans.co/2017/08/02...retrospective/

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Artur

WEC will continue to exist, though now we'll have to settle for only LMP2s and GTs, which is not so bad, even though the P1s were by far my main interest.

I think LMP1 will be around in 2018, but in what form: 1) Toyota monopoly 2)No Toyota, but with a bunch of upstarts looking for their best shot of glory.

I feel we will know by the Mexico WEC round in early September.

[chernaudi]

I'll be posting this in separate threads, but for different reasons.

Here, the author is beating the drum on VAG to F1 rumors might have killed the Porsche (and possibly also Audi Sport) LMP1 programs:

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/ar...p1-withdrawal/

You can decide if that's true or more vaporware/rumor mongering.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'll be posting this in separate threads, but for different reasons.

Here, the author is beating the drum on VAG to F1 rumors might have killed the Porsche (and possibly also Audi Sport) LMP1 programs:

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/ar...p1-withdrawal/

You can decide if that's true or more vaporware/rumor mongering.

I suspect that there is a substantial amount of truth in that article. We will just have to wait and see.

[deggis]

A bit meh article / opinion. Few errors and in the end the usual assumption that all DPi manufacturers would be instantly interested doing Le Mans next year. Soon late for that.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

A bit meh article / opinion. Few errors and in the end the usual assumption that all DPi manufacturers would be instantly interested doing Le Mans next year. Soon late for that.

Just what I felt. It was mostly an article of the same things weve been hearing... DPi is the answer. They left because F1. Toyota's not a worthy opponent and they're going to leave anyway. They have a hand in the future of F1's engine rules.

[Maelochs]

DPi is not "the answer." Haven't we been through enough cycles of this stuff to know there is no "answer"?

I think the point people are trying to make is that P1-H looks pretty silly in retrospect .... huge expenditures to be a little faster the LMP2.

DPi and LMP-1 seem both to be more affordable, are a little faster than P2, can been run by privateers or factories, and .... as if it mattered ... could provide great racing (recall the decade of awesome P1 battles we saw before the Hybrid era?)

Now that the FIA has made the cost for kissing its butt so high (or charged the factories so much to have FIA kiss their butts) that no manufacturer wants to be involved on that level ... People see two classes of cars, all basically based on modified P2 chassis (P1-L and DPi,) which creative rulesmakers could span with a single set of rules, which of course would have to be modified for each series ... but the base cars could work.

The benefit here is the same benefit P2 sees ... when a chassis maker can make and sell more chassis in more series, those chassis makers have more business .... don't go broke, can support those chassis throughout their lives, can issue upgrades (Oreca 05 to 07) and so forth which can help keep costs down ... which matters when running a business instead of an high-priced mutual butt-kissing extravaganza.

Imagine if a few Cadilarras were running in WEC ... a few P1 Orecas and Oak-Ligiers in IMSA .... Imagine Variety up front again!

IMSA, for all its faults, was smart enough to realize that fans wanted various cars in the top class ... if those cars are affordable (relatively) the odds of there being more cars is higher.

Will Some IMSA or WEC teams cross over ... you mean like Rebellion, or ESM? Mazda has long said its ultimate goal is Le Mans ... I bet the Captain would love a Le Mans win before he shuts up shop .... Chip Ganassi probably wouldn't turn down a chance for an overall at Le Mans ... but who cares?

The idea is for there to be enough P1/DPi/Top-tier protos, whatever letter-jumble you use, to keep grids full even if a couple teams go bankrupt here or there.

If the top class is affordable and the rules relatively stable, and fair enough that people can calculate a chance of actually winning .... people will sign up and we will have sleek, fast, race cars circling the track.

Or ... we can fight among ourselves while complaining about FIA and IMSA fighting.

The goal is to look at sports cars Worldwide. it is an International Business. Manufacturers (or more properly, Constructors, in Prototype classes) Benefit from having larger, more varied markets---and so do their customers (in this case both teams and fans.)

I guess this idea is so clear to me because I didn't take any business classes or something.

[chernaudi]

I don't know why you're blaming the FIA--all they've done is put their name on the championship to give it WC status.

Everyone who's gone on record for the WEC, guys like Fillion, Neveu, Beaumesnil, and Owen-Jones, are all ACO people. Not to mention that the ACO write all the technical regulations and almost all the sporting rules.

Wanna blame a sanctioning body, blame the guys who will still be fat and happy if the WEC crashes and burns--the guys who own Le Mans lock, stock, and barrel, the ACO.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

DPi is not "the answer." Haven't we been through enough cycles of this stuff to know there is no "answer"?

I think the point people are trying to make is that P1-H looks pretty silly in retrospect .... huge expenditures to be a little faster the LMP2.

DPi and LMP-1 seem both to be more affordable, are a little faster than P2, can been run by privateers or factories, and .... as if it mattered ... could provide great racing (recall the decade of awesome P1 battles we saw before the Hybrid era?)

Now that the FIA has made the cost for kissing its butt so high (or charged the factories so much to have FIA kiss their butts) that no manufacturer wants to be involved on that level ... People see two classes of cars, all basically based on modified P2 chassis (P1-L and DPi,) which creative rulesmakers could span with a single set of rules, which of course would have to be modified for each series ... but the base cars could work.

The benefit here is the same benefit P2 sees ... when a chassis maker can make and sell more chassis in more series, those chassis makers have more business .... don't go broke, can support those chassis throughout their lives, can issue upgrades (Oreca 05 to 07) and so forth which can help keep costs down ... which matters when running a business instead of an high-priced mutual butt-kissing extravaganza.

Imagine if a few Cadilarras were running in WEC ... a few P1 Orecas and Oak-Ligiers in IMSA .... Imagine Variety up front again!

IMSA, for all its faults, was smart enough to realize that fans wanted various cars in the top class ... if those cars are affordable (relatively) the odds of there being more cars is higher.

Will Some IMSA or WEC teams cross over ... you mean like Rebellion, or ESM? Mazda has long said its ultimate goal is Le Mans ... I bet the Captain would love a Le Mans win before he shuts up shop .... Chip Ganassi probably wouldn't turn down a chance for an overall at Le Mans ... but who cares?

The idea is for there to be enough P1/DPi/Top-tier protos, whatever letter-jumble you use, to keep grids full even if a couple teams go bankrupt here or there.

If the top class is affordable and the rules relatively stable, and fair enough that people can calculate a chance of actually winning .... people will sign up and we will have sleek, fast, race cars circling the track.

Or ... we can fight among ourselves while complaining about FIA and IMSA fighting.

The goal is to look at sports cars Worldwide. it is an International Business. Manufacturers (or more properly, Constructors, in Prototype classes) Benefit from having larger, more varied markets---and so do their customers (in this case both teams and fans.)

I guess this idea is so clear to me because I didn't take any business classes or something.

I like the DPI and I am happy that thanks to them we will have a resurgence of the ALMS next year in IMSA. I have the feeling that these are going to be alone in Le Mans and not in the WEC. In this case, I do not think DPIs are the solution for Le Mans. Le Mans always had the highest technology of the time as F1 and DPI do not represent that.
I think the ACO should try to reach an agreement with Liverty Media and bring F1 to Le Mans. I know the relationship is good since Chase Carey had a great presence in the last 24 hours.
I would love to see variants of wheels covered by the current F1, somewhat like the LM spyders but single-seater similar to the WR Peugeot LM95.
In the 50's these covered-wheelers F1 were called Streamliner and the most famous of that was the Mercedes w196 that had the 2 variants open wheel and streamliner.
I think any F1 team could make these aerodynamic changes without major problems and these should be balanced in terms of weight and fuel flow with the LMP1 to have a hand-to-hand fighting for the overall victory.
In this way we could have Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Red Bull, Mc Laren, Honda, Williams and if some rumors are made Porsche, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin and Cosworth. In addition to super stars such as Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Ricciardo and Raikkonen.
All this together with Toyota and maybe Peugeot which could be really incredible !!

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TF110

JToyota's not a worthy opponent and they're going to leave anyway.

I don't think he meant it in a way to diminish Toyota. He was pointing out that both brands compete for different markets. But I disagree with what he implied.

I see it exactly the other way around. When you compete against brands of different markets, you have nothing to lose as is the case with Renault and Honda and why there are still accepting to be spanked by Mercedes(and Ferrari) on F1.

Afterall, the potential buyers of Renault or Honda cars cannot afford a Mercedes or Ferrari or Porsche(or any other luxury car) so their embarassing defeat doesn't mean much unless it's against a competitor "average Joe" brand like Toyota, Volkswagen, FIAT, GM, Ford......(as most casual viewers don't know luxury brands belong to other popular car companies)

The author wrote :"On paper Porsche should win every race against Toyota". That's not how it works. On paper, the richest company should win every race, not the brand which sells the most expensive product. Toyota and Volkswagen are the two giants of the auto industry, so there is no shame to lose to any of them.

F1 has been so underwhelming in the last years that it's owners, media and fans are very desperate for big manufacturers to join it. I'll only believe it when I see it, though.

[hondafan37]

Porsche not denying future F1 foray
Porsche is not denying that a "high efficiency engine" already under development could become the basis of a F1 project.
The German sports car maker shocked the world of motor sport recently by announcing that it is leaving the top Le Mans category LMP1.
However, Porsche's entire Le Mans team is being kept together, ramping up speculation that after a move into Formula E, the next step could be F1.
"We need all of these (LMP1) people in the future," Porsche's research and development chief Michael Steiner told Auto Motor und Sport.
"The great team we built for LMP1 is highly motivated and represents an enormous wealth of knowledge," he explained. "So it is a good idea to have a concrete plan for the engineers, mechanics and even for the drivers."
Exactly what the whole LMP1 team will be doing, however, is unclear, and only adds to the rumours that the next step for Porsche is a F1 engine for the post-2020 rules.
"Like other manufacturers, we at the invitation of the FIA are participating in the discussions about the future formula one powertrain," Steiner admitted.
"The team at Weissach is not working on an F1 engine at the moment, but it is working on a high-efficiency engine at the concept level -- without a decision about what we are doing with this engine," he said.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37096.html

[TF110]

Toyota was there too if what I read is correct. And there was another manufacturer plus cosworth. Audi kept most of it's lmp1 team together after the withdrawal, but there's no F1 entry there (yet).

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Porsche not denying future F1 foray
Porsche is not denying that a "high efficiency engine" already under development could become the basis of a F1 project.
The German sports car maker shocked the world of motor sport recently by announcing that it is leaving the top Le Mans category LMP1.
However, Porsche's entire Le Mans team is being kept together, ramping up speculation that after a move into Formula E, the next step could be F1.
"We need all of these (LMP1) people in the future," Porsche's research and development chief Michael Steiner told Auto Motor und Sport.
"The great team we built for LMP1 is highly motivated and represents an enormous wealth of knowledge," he explained. "So it is a good idea to have a concrete plan for the engineers, mechanics and even for the drivers."
Exactly what the whole LMP1 team will be doing, however, is unclear, and only adds to the rumours that the next step for Porsche is a F1 engine for the post-2020 rules.
"Like other manufacturers, we at the invitation of the FIA are participating in the discussions about the future formula one powertrain," Steiner admitted.
"The team at Weissach is not working on an F1 engine at the moment, but it is working on a high-efficiency engine at the concept level -- without a decision about what we are doing with this engine," he said.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37096.html

Again: I suspect that is where they are heading.

If they do go to F1, then I hope that it is not just as an engine supplier.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Again: I suspect that is where they are heading.

If they do go to F1, then I hope that it is not just as an engine supplier.

They were already spending nearly F1 money, why not get the F1 benefits?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

They were already spending nearly F1 money, why not get the F1 benefits?

Exactly! ...and they might as well get their entire arse handed to them rather than just the sphincter.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Again: I suspect that is where they are heading.

If they do go to F1, then I hope that it is not just as an engine supplier.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

They were already spending nearly F1 money, why not get the F1 benefits?

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Exactly! ...and they might as well get their entire arse handed to them rather than just the sphincter.

I think like you, if they go to Formula 1 I hope it's as a complete team.
Will it be the second time in the history that there will be a Ferrari vs. Porsche in the first level of motorsport (LMP1 or F1)?
I only remember the duel 512 vs 917 in the 70s.
There were a lot of confrontations in GT ( all models of 911of all times vs F40, 348, 355, 360, 430 , 458, 488)
There were 333 sp vs 911 GT1 or Joest Porsche but the 333 sp were racing for private teams.
Also in Formula 1 Mc Laren Tag-Porsche vs Ferrari in the 80s but it was a Mc Laren.
Hopefully it will happen !!!