[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

In order to compete with the senior teams like McLaren and Ferrari, others like Honda and Toyota had to spend a lot of money because they didn't get as much prize money or historical payments like those two did. Ferrari got something over $50 million per year just because they're a historical team. McLaren receive around $35-40 million; just for showing up

They din't really compete with the legacy teams. Red Bull did.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by bobec

Again, how does the fact that TMG have their own wind tunnel reflect on their costs when compared to teams that have to pay to get access to a wind tunnel? It's more than clear that Audi were spending very big money on aero development, and that was because they had nothing else to work with, because of the regulations which "they directed"....

The short answer is "minimally". It's not free to operate it just because you built it and the budget difference between Audi and Toyota between 2012 and 2017 could have bought like half a dozen F1 grade wind tunnels if renting was that much more expensive.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Since you brought it up, would you want DPI to become the new LMP1? Even though it's basically the prototype form or racing socialism? If you get too fast, you get pegged back or your competitors get sped up to your level though performance balancing. Granted, modern day LMP1 was the exact opposite if anything, being basically racing Darwinism.

There wasn't this stuff (racing socialism/heavy BOP) going on in LMP900 when the R8s won almost everything in sight, or when Toyota had the fastest car by far at LM in '99.

There's room for compromise, but if one could only chose one or the other, would you rather have the micromanaged BOP and artificial equality of DPI, or current day LMP1 where it's a spending and technology war that goes on until OEMs decide to call time on their participation?

Ideal solution from the beginning was a formula that allowed for, but didn't incentivize, technology on such a scale, and was friendlier to privateer teams. Other than Kolles, we can only confirm SMP as a privateer LMP1 entry next year. Perrin has gone nowhere and there's still sales to be confirmed for the new Ginetta.

The ACO are now getting bitten by the owner of the hand that fed them. Usually that saying's the other way around, but not here. They gambled on pandering to OEMs, knowing what could happen when the bubble burst.

And the reason for that is the same reason why Volkswagen cheated the diesel regs in the US: greed. Greed, and wanting things now and the hell with the longer term consequences. At least for VAG, they're pretty much able to "buy" their way out of things by paying off lawsuits and claims, and still remain profitable.

The ACO don't have that luxury now. They became so dependent on OEMs that it's like a drug addict who's trying to quit cold turkey. They should've remembered that though factory money's nice, it rarely lasts as long as it ultimately did. And that factory participation is at the whims of corporate boards, accountants, and marketing departments.

Why does the DPi vs LMP1 have anything to do with what I said? I made no comment either way so anything you have decided is purely in your head.

Really, racing Darwinism?? Wow, there were never any rules meant to make the cars equal or punish the car that did the nest with the rules? The ACO printed a rule book and left it alone? That's Darwinism. The ACO has NEVER, NOT ONCE EVER EVER EVER been about racing Darwinism. If you think it has been, we can't have a real honest discussion because you really have a dream world. Pug wasn't fast enough and needed help, rules were tweaked or ignored. Audi was out in front with diesel so let's tweak the equivalency formula, if they really wanted a true chemical equivalence than it should have been straightforward. But no, Audi could run longer so we need to tweak that. That's NOT Darwinism, that's pandering to complaints to make it fair. Call it what you want but it is all balancing. And never mind banning things because Audi thought ahead and worked on making their car modular knowing things break. Wait, that's unfair and expensive so it must be banned. That's all about being fair so stop with the racing has ever been Darwinism bs, the minute they made rules and amended them for non-safety reasons it stopped being that.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by bobec

They din't really compete with the legacy teams. Red Bull did.

They finished 11 points behind Ferrari in their last season. That seems pretty competitive imo. As for Red Bull, they bought Jaguar, and they didn't come good until 2009. They didn't start their own team from scratch and on top of that, they don't make their own engine That's pretty much the whole point. The funny part is they spend just as much as anyone else does considering all that.

[hondafan37]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/15647

Porsche to Formula 1 with Williams:
Porsche will quit the FIA World Endurance Championship's LMP1 class at the end of this season, but the signs are that the ultimate goal is not to rely only on Formula E and that Porsche's next stop will be an F1 deal.

The company already has all the technology required to create a current F1 engine and while it is unlikely to win anything before the new F1 rules come into place in 2021, there is a very obvious strategy which it could take to be in a great position for the next F1 era.

The word in Budapest before the summer break was that Porsche will come to F1 - perhaps with other VW brands following as well - and that the obvious deal would be to go into partnership with an established team, in order to avoid having to invest in expensive chassis technology and infrastructure.

While it is assumed by most people that this would involve a deal with Red Bull Racing, it is much more likely that Porsche will go to a team which is a little bit more manufacturer-friendly. McLaren has its own agenda with engines while Sauber and Toro Rosso are in the wrong places. Haas is a Ferrari satellite. Force India might be a possible partner, but while it has a great group of engineers it needs a huge amount of capital investment..

All of this means that the best available choice is clearly Williams F1, not only because the team has a great heritage and decent facilities, but also because it needs a manufacturer to get it back to winning, which a customer Mercedes engine deal will not do.

There are also other elements that make Williams the obvious choice, not least the fact that it is sponsored by Porsche's traditional motorsport partner Martini & Rossi and the various brands fit very neatly together. The Martini Porsche relationship goes back nearly 50 years and is a brand that is instantly recognised outside the confines of F1.

Williams is also a company that is listed on the stock exchange in Germany, which means that the potential for a full takeover of the Williams group exists, if the family wants to sell out to Porsche at some point in the future. This need not all happen tomorrow, but there is a great deal of long term logic in such a relationship.

[Adam43]

Crikey a post about Porsche! Who'd have thought? It's not really about LMP1, but as their leaving that doesn't surprise.

What is good about that post is that it isn't a bun fight and no one is getting overly defensive because someone might have said something against their favourite team.

[AoB Special Stage]

[airbusA346]

Jani has signed a deal to race with Dragon Racing in the upcoming FE season.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula-e...e-mans-944353/

[JoeW04]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

Jani has signed a deal to race with Dragon Racing in the upcoming FE season.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula-e...e-mans-944353/

Another one gone to waste, if I was Penske he would of been one of the first I called for the DPI program

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by JoeW04

Another one gone to waste, if I was Penske he would of been one of the first I called for the DPI program

Well, he is still driving for Penske.

What clashes are there between FE and WSC? If he can still do both I'd be surprised if he hasn't been considered, but I assume he's still under contract with Porsche and this is just a stop-gap until they officially enter. Whether Porsche would let him drive for Honda is another matter, even if they aren't direct competitors.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by JoeW04

Another one gone to waste, if I was Penske he would of been one of the first I called for the DPI program

But Dragon IS Penske (junior anyway). Could this point to Porsche in place of Faraday in the Future

EDIT: J Jay got there first!

Mariantic

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Well, he is still driving for Penske.

What clashes are there between FE and WSC? If he can still do both I'd be surprised if he hasn't been considered, but I assume he's still under contract with Porsche and this is just a stop-gap until they officially enter. Whether Porsche would let him drive for Honda is another matter, even if they aren't direct competitors.

We don't have the Formula E Calender yet for the 17-18 season so we'll have to see.

I did once hear that the reason Formula E has so many big names is that it pays extremely well. It has a lot of funding behind it. You can tell that the teams have alternative funding because in the same week as announcing Jani as a driver, it came out that Dragon will probably lose the Faraday Future branding from the team too. So the money is coming from somewhere.

[J Jay]

Well they're clearly not spending lots of money on the cars, so all that cash has to go somewhere. How this evolves as the regulations open up and more manufacturers join remains to be seen.

[TF110]

Hope the budgets stay low for the sake of small teams. But I think it's just a matter of time until they do get higher and the same thing happening to the lmp1 program happens to the f-e one.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We don't have the Formula E Calender yet for the 17-18 season so we'll have to see.

Um, yes we do.

And conflicts at Sebring/Sao Paulo and Mosport/NYC.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

Um, yes we do.

And conflicts at Sebring/Sao Paulo and Mosport/NYC.

The one from April/May? It had entire countries marked as TBA, and half the dates marked as TBC. It was a calendar written on an envelope. Would like to see a full complete calendar.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The one from April/May? It had entire countries marked as TBA, and half the dates marked as TBC. It was a calendar written on an envelope. Would like to see a full complete calendar.

Or maybe this one? FIA Formula E calendar straight from the source with a 2 sec google search, which has one TBA for the German Templehof track and one TBA round in early July. Guessing working out details and payments for Germany and the July round has been fairly silent so thinking a slot left open in case but likely dropped before start of the season. But Sao Paulo/Sebring and NYC/Mosport are on the calendar with dates so the conflicts are set.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Or maybe this one? FIA Formula E calendar straight from the source with a 2 sec google search, which has one TBA for the German Templehof track and one TBA round in early July. Guessing working out details and payments for Germany and the July round has been fairly silent so thinking a slot left open in case but likely dropped before start of the season. But Sao Paulo/Sebring and NYC/Mosport are on the calendar with dates so the conflicts are set.

I would apologise for not keeping up with the Formula E Calendar, but in all honesty I don't really care about it. But when that calendar was announced it originally had half the dates as TBCs and they haven't filled in the TBA countries yet.

Announcing your calendar in stages and penciling in some stuff later isn't a particularly good way of announcing a calendar. And conflicting with the obvious Sebring date isn't particularly sensible either, but that's not a surprise.

[chernaudi]

FE's deal to avoid date clashes was with the ACO and the WEC, not IMSA.

[Akrapovic]

Yeah, and there's no WEC races in February. But IMSA is attempting to bring some European teams and drivers from WEC/ELMS over to do the 36 Hours of Florida. This isn't helpful.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I would apologise for not keeping up with the Formula E Calendar, but in all honesty I don't really care about it. But when that calendar was announced it originally had half the dates as TBCs and they haven't filled in the TBA countries yet.

Announcing your calendar in stages and penciling in some stuff later isn't a particularly good way of announcing a calendar. And conflicting with the obvious Sebring date isn't particularly sensible either, but that's not a surprise.

You said you'd like to see and with 2 seconds of work it was available and somehow I'm the ass?? It took no effort at all and you could have avoided appearing like the pretentious ass who couldn't be bothered to find the schedule and instead comment about a schedule you had seen months ago. And even Formula 1 and WEC have had to pencil things in and make changes late so it's ok for them but terrible for Formula E??

And yes, I'll take my own break and points for that but felt it had to be said.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

You said you'd like to see and with 2 seconds of work it was available and somehow I'm the ass?? It took no effort at all and you could have avoided appearing like the pretentious ass who couldn't be bothered to find the schedule and instead comment about a schedule you had seen months ago. And even Formula 1 and WEC have had to pencil things in and make changes late so it's ok for them but terrible for Formula E??

And yes, I'll take my own break and points for that but felt it had to be said.

errrr. I don't know if you're having a bad day mate, but I never called you an ass? I pointed out that the original calendar was only half a calendar, and you came back with a sarky comment about a 2 second google search. I normally agree with most of the things you say, but I didn't even mention that sarky comment as I figured we all have bad days, or I read it wrong. I never called you an ass, and ignored a couple of snipes at me, so I didn't continue researching for the FE calendar as it isn't on my radar, so I didn't realise they'd continued to fill in the blanks. I suppose I could've just snapped at J Jay and told him to google it, rather than posting the tiny little bit I knew. Half the stuff I post is just from researching Google, so the forums about to become a lot less fun if we all just post google search results every few posts.

F1 and WEC (and some others) do have to make changes to calendars. But the original FE Calendar is missing entire countries, circuits and had dates missing as well. It was half a calendar, just to get it out first. Generally the big series have their calendars mostly sorted, and the smaller series are the ones that make the most changes to work round it. I don't like this idea of putting out a calendar with dates missing, and obvious conflicts, when you know half your client base races elsewhere. F1 is a little different because nobody in F1 races elsewhere (or is allowed to, is maybe more accurate, unless you're Fernando). I'm not a huge F1 fan, but they do have a massive advantage of being able to completely disregard everybody else when it comes to calendars.

I understand why people enjoy Formula E, it has a bit of charm and the circuits are fun. But man people will defend it to the death.

[AoB Special Stage]

How about this, you're both asses. Can we move on?

[Aysedasi]

Yep, sound advice.

[Spyderman]

Congratulations Porsche. I will miss them.