BMW 6 series

[The359]

M5 wouldn't be legal anyway.

[ger80]

BMW wants one set of GT rules first (ACO, FIA, SuperGT)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by ger80

BMW wants one set of GT rules first (ACO, FIA, SuperGT)

And if possible DTM as well.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

And if possible DTM as well.

DTM is not GT/endurance racing

[Speed-King]

That raises the question what DTM really is ...
It's more or less a prototype with a touring car silouette and hence not too far away from Super GT. If there was a common set of rules for Super GT and ACO GT one (or both?) of them would have to radically change their rules. And if they do, DTM could do as well.
After all, I think, a company like AMG could built a competitive high performance sedan for the current ACO GT1 rules if they wanted to (and were allowed to race with four doors).

And for the endurance aspect: The 935s and Zakspeed Turbo Capris in the old days of DRM also competed in 100km -160km Sprint races.

I think the division between touring cars and GTs is rather artificial at a certain level. Don't missunderstand me, but a DTM car is much closer to a Super GT or GT1 car then to an Super 2000 touring car. And a GT4 Mustang/Nissan is probably closer to a touring car car than to a GT1 machine.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think the division between touring cars and GTs is rather artificial at a certain level. Don't missunderstand me, but a DTM car is much closer to a Super GT or GT1 car then to an Super 2000 touring car.

Touring cars are used to promote big passager cars manufacturers: Alfa (156), Audi (A4), BMW (3), Chevrolet (Lacetti), Honda (Civic, Accord), Mercedes (C), Seat (Toledo, Leon), Vauxhall (Astra, Vectra), ... The format is sprint races.

GT racing is designed for small sportscar manufacturers: Aston Martin, Corvette, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Panoz, Porsche, Saleen, Spyker. The race format is endurance (longer race duration, multiple drivers, etc.)

So marketing wise DTM is a touring car race series, but technically it is not. The 2 mandatory pitstops make it a very strange format.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

GT racing is designed for small sportscar manufacturers: Aston Martin, Corvette, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Panoz, Porsche, Saleen, Spyker. The race format is endurance (longer race duration, multiple drivers, etc.)

The temporary absence of big manufacturers in GT racing does not mean that
they (and their marketing budgets) wouldn't be welcomed with open arms (at least by the sanctioning bodies!) in GT racing. After all this thread is about a hypothetical BMW 6 series GT car.

So marketing wise DTM is a touring car race series, but technically it is not.

And if it isn't a touring car series technically it could technically as well be a GT series, if it still looked a bit like a touring car.

[dj4monie]

Your right big budgets would not be welcomed in the ALMS for the most part, you snuff out the smaller private teams.

But in return for "Walter Mitty" you would get hellaous battles that would have us directly comparing it with the Golden days of Group C.

In the very near future the you might see a LMP line up made up for Acura (Honda), Porsche, Toyota and maybe a Korean manufacturer that is gaining BIG time market share on both sides of the Atlantic.

Anyway, the M6 is the car BMW needs to market even thought it sells fairly well with just magazine reviews.

But from day one, when BMW submitted the car, they made no secret that they wanted favorable "treatment" by the FIA/ACO in "adjustments" made to the M6 to make it competitive with the benchmarks in that class.

Personally I don't think BMW would have needed to worry so much, the Aston isn't the most aero friendly design either, but you know it manages to run pretty quickly when the track conditions allow for it. I believe BMW could have built an M6R to that same forumla - BIG ENGINE/LOTS OF POWER, decent aero and brakes.

Excellent tires will mask some short comings - See Aston Martin.

I just don't think they wanted to pull money from their F1 program to do it. And like many manufacturers these days they should be looking to package a car like this for sale to would-be and present GT teams and use flagship team AC Schizer to run rough shod over Corvette in the ALMS, you know Charlie Lamy would love to have a shot at Doug Fehan...lol

and BMW would spare nothing to beat the current bench mark...

Which would make for Battle Royals at Sebring, Le Mans, Petit & Road America.

C'mon Mario, you know you wanna do it...

[jaybond]

M6 is definitely suitable for the GT1. These days, the top GT class is pretty much absent in terms of German marques entrants. I think it would be great if BMW,Porsche & Mercedes cars are represented inthe GT1 - OK,with fair & strict rules!

[juicy sushi]

i think though, that in keeping with our other thread on gt1, that an M6 is just unlikely period. i don't see BMW committing to a class with visible problems, especially really serious ones in the market they are chiefly concerned with (north america).

apparently an M3 GTR is coming in 2008 or 2009 for GT2, which should be a nice little fire-breather that plenty of privateers can get their hands on, and i think that would be a better option...

[Aysedasi]

Ooh, an M3 in GT? Now, where have I heard that delightful thought before........ (Said he, mischeviously.......... )

[Satorian]

I'm also highly expecting a GT3 version. It would be a very fitting grassroots-GT marketing opportunity, especially with Germany having its own GT3 series.

I wouldn't be surprised as well if FIA GT3 cars soon get their own class in the VLN regulations.

[bil588]

Tube-frame M6 from Riley for Grand-Am

http://www.grand-am.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9151

http://www.automaticracing.com/

http://www.rileytech.com/

[Johnny1lap]

BMW 6-series is a type of car that a gay hair dresser would drive around in. PLEASE DO NOT BRING THIS IN TO LMGT1!!!!!!!!!!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Johnny1lap

BMW 6-series is a type of car that a gay hair dresser would drive around in. PLEASE DO NOT BRING THIS IN TO LMGT1!!!!!!!!!!

Nope GT2 and GT3 car.

Look for a CTS Coupe in the near future as well.

[gucom]

tube frame = more or less silhouette = not allowed by ACO / SRO? or am I wrong here?

[AU N EGL]

allowed in GT2 if built from the original frame and original glass. plus a few other items.

so semi allowed.

[gucom]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

allowed in GT2 if built from the original frame and original glass. plus a few other items.

so semi allowed.

meh I'd like GT cars to be as closely based on production cars as possible, ofcourse allowing for modifications to benefit 24h durability... new tubeframe chassis sounds like bespoke racecar to me

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by gucom

meh I'd like GT cars to be as closely based on production cars as possible, ofcourse allowing for modifications to benefit 24h durability... new tubeframe chassis sounds like bespoke racecar to me

Yes but that is what GT2 cars are. They are not street cars or anywhere near a street car, OK they LOOK like street cars, But that is about as close as it gets.

[gucom]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Yes but that is what GT2 cars are. They are not street cars or anywhere near a street car, OK they LOOK like street cars, But that is about as close as it gets.

ah well i guess it's still closer to road cars than SuperGT or DTM...
so how much more roadcar-based are GT3 cars?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by gucom

ah well i guess it's still closer to road cars than SuperGT or DTM...

not by much. GT1 cars are silhouettes too as you call them

so how much more roadcar-based are GT3 cars?

GT3 Start as road cars off the dealer show room floor, stripped and gutted, cage installed, engine and trans pulled out taken apart, blue printed and balanced, then rebuilt with stronger parts. suppension taken off and stronger suspension put on . same with all other parts too. Most of the body parts are replaced with Carbon Fiber body parts, if they don't come that way.

So again they LOOK like road going cars, and start off that way, but rebuilt with stronger parts.

Time to get to some race shops or walk around the paddock next year and have a look.

[gucom]

^^some illusions shattered right there guess i like GT3 best of those 3 classes...
So when did this process of de-standarization take place (starting at the re-allowing of GT cars at Le Mans, in '93 i believe)? Were these GT cars full-on racing cars from the start? Plz tell me the '95 F1 GTR was at least closely based on the production car, right? :P And the mid/late '90s Porsche GT2s?

[Tim the Grey]

The days are LONG gone where you turned up in the road car, pumped the tyres up,and went racing, then drove it home again.
At least the last 20, possibly 25, years.

Sorry.

[gucom]

but were the "supercar-based" GT cars of the early 90's (F40, XJ220 and McLaren F1 race cars) also as heavily modified as the current GT(1/2) cars? I always thought the F1 GTR was a rather quick conversion, certainly the chassis wouldnt need that much altering? the bodywork was also pretty much standard

PS sorry for going so far OT

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by gucom

but were the "supercar-based" GT cars of the early 90's (F40, XJ220 and McLaren F1 race cars) also as heavily modified as the current GT(1/2) cars? I always thought the F1 GTR was a rather quick conversion, certainly the chassis wouldnt need that much altering? the bodywork was also pretty much standard

PS sorry for going so far OT

The "supercars" were never raced in a GT1 class and never intended to be raced. Just built as a SUPER sports car. Ok the Marserati MC12 is the race version of the Ferrari F40 to a limited degree in the FIA races and the ALMS. But not for the ACO in the LM24