Bent (or not) cars, Wealth (or lack of) and Scrutineering (ex Goodwood thread)

[terence]

John,it's not an infatuation,purely a fact ! It is obvious that an 'ordinary bloke' could not or want to develop the likes of the mentioned E Type,the ordinary bloke wouldn't waist his hard earned on such a futile exorcise!
But money or no money we cannot escape the other fact that IF the policing had been more efficient in the first place,historics wouldn't be in such a laughable,pathetic situation now.Judging by the various comment's from 'people who know',they seem to think that it's the better off owners who are mostly responsible,that, I think you'll find,is a pretty fair conclusion.
Fordwater? Whats that?

[john ruston]

In the last week we have had concerns about everything from B's to GT40's.
Terry in your speak,Paupers to Princes.

Its not the class or cash system ,its people wanting to win and doing this they lose all sense of values and have absolutely no moral values.

Who are the people in the know and if they know why not do something about it.Mr Hall on here doesn't beat about the bush where are these others you refer to?

It's hopefully going to be policed but it will not stop.

[terence]

Jeremy is in a slightly different position than I! I think you sum it up quite well John,' they loose all sense' etc.
The people in the know are those accomplished drivers who sometimes post on here,they are able to see first hand the performance differential between their cars and the regularly faster but same type of car, no matter what the car may be.
My comments are not in anyway pointing a finger at the more well healed,some of whom I know very well and have become good 'racing friends' and I know that they will not bend the rule's at all cost's just to secure that chromed bit of tin called a trophy.'Absolutely no point in that,only out there to have fun but it would be great if the playing field was a little more level than it currently is', as said to me at Spa by one of those 'well healed' drivers!.
Strange thing is that everone out there know's who the culprits are,obviously not just the drivers,so hopefully now things Will get done,to a degree!

[simon drabble]

as has been mentioned by several already it is ultimately down to the series organizer as none of these races are FIA rounds (with the exception of the Lurani).

As the organizers of most series do it on a commercial basis their main priority is to have a full grid. As a club run for its members the HSCC is realistically the only one that can afford to throw cars off the grid and historically they have.

So unless an organizer can be confidenet of filling the grid with "straight" cars they will continue to allow "grey" cars. Its not perfect but its the reality and so long as you have a good time out there it shoudl not worry you if a few cars are more liberal in their spec unless you are pot hunting!

Ultimately I would prefer to race with safe illegal cars rather than legal loonies so if there is to be policing let it be for driving standards......

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Bent cars are owed by well heeled and even down at heal owners.Equally proper cars are owned by both.
This incessant infatuation about money amazes me.
As an aside these designers are clever!Development of old crates a waste of time.
Different size engines for different events,pointless.
How many people know or care who won the Fordwater or MSR at Silverstone or Gents Drivers at Spa,virtually none or handful at most

Sorry Tel I agree with John, I would say I am in the middleroad finacially wise but do have my own workshop facility and have seen more tricks over the years than in a barrel load of monkees and am quite confident I could build a very quick and trick small block Mustang engine on a budget and hide rose joints in TCA arms etc if I really wanted to. Dont forget at our 'level' we we are doing stuff ourselves you as well so who is to know what goes inside, the cat is only out the bag when someone with money pays money to a third party to have the work done and has a fall out and either the engine builder/preparer or a disgruntled employee starts mouthing off. You and I maybe have the advantage that no one need know but us. ;-)

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by John Turner

What, you expect them to be able to spell, as well? Anyway, how long do you think I've got!

I'm more interested in identifying the last post that was actually directly connected to the the Thread title. Perhaps I should create a new thread entitled 'Hooky Cars' from the last few pages!

John total interconnection

Goodwood = Hooky Cars

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by RogerH

You are right Peter in that it is a very expensive ego boost, however not everybody knows the car is bent and this then portrays a false impression to the keen but uneducated observers that (as in this case) Stanguellinis in period were much more competitive than they really were.
The main concern is that if "bent" cars become accepted it encourages other competitors to "bend" their cars as well - perhaps to try and push the boundary just a little more each time. Eventually it could end up with our historic race cars being only silhouettes of they cars they were in period. If people want to do this then they should partake in a development category - historic racing is not a development class.
It appears that the view from this forum is that the improper modification of historic race cars is becoming too prevalent and some sort of stand is needed to curtail the practice. The problem is that despite the best of intentions the problem is still happening.

It has happened since the very first 'historic race', cars were raced in different specs. to original (and very rarely specs. that made the car slower!) - in some cases through continual modification, in others due to the lack of original parts. But it has been going on longer than the F1 World Championship!

I was bothered about Richardson engines when they first appeared over 20 years ago (had a junior and couldn't afford to spend as much as the car had cost on a new engine) and no one has done anything about them in that time - apart from insisting on the correct capacity and no roller rockers which happened early on - so they are now the 'norm'.

Maybe the level of modification has increased recently along with the values of the cars (e.g. easier to justify spending the money), but it isn't new - and it existed in period, everyone looked for an edge.

As John Ruston says no one really remembers who wins any historic race, so ultimately a cars historic importance is still based on its period perfromance - success in historics might make it easier to sell something now but that is about all.

One change is that when historic cars weren't worth a lot of money, a cost effective solution was needed which in some cases meant using a modern (or at least different) component rather than an original (or modern copy of) one, but that was really for practical reasons - but it set a precedent that is hard to change.

'When I was a lad' the events tended to be rather lower key and would not justify someone flying a car and driver etc over for a race as happens now.
But the grids were smaller and they had to mix types of car together to fill the grid, so the racing wasn't any more realistic, just friendlier and the owners tended to be intimately involved with their cars.

Another problem is that the ability to buy a car does not relate to the ability to drive it, if meetings want to continue to attract the very best cars and, consequently, their wealthy owners they have to make it tempting for them to participate, and if their ability means they would be slow they aren't going to come for very long...

John also mentions that he is amazed at the infatuation about money - that is easy to say when you have more than enough, but there are people in historics who find it a stretch financially and they will tend to resent those who come along and throw loads of money at their hobby.
Those enthusiasts are the people who will still be there after the bubble has burst (again), anyone looking for a long term future should look after them, but the guy waving wads of money is tempting to anyone running a business such as a race meeting.

[terence]

Very nice posting Peter,more of what I had tried to get over.

[L-G Sjöberg]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

I was bothered about Richardson engines when they first appeared over 20 years ago (had a junior and couldn't afford to spend as much as the car had cost on a new engine) and no one has done anything about them in that time - apart from insisting on the correct capacity and no roller rockers which happened early on - so they are now the 'norm'.

There has been something done regarding the Richardson heads, they are now only allowed on Juniors that fall under FIA period F. They are banned in period E.

[John Turner]

Excellent post from Peter Morley above. It just highlights again, the difficulty in where you draw the line.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

John total interconnection

Goodwood = Hooky Cars

Correction surely, in the light of other comments:-

Goodwood + Spa = Hooky cars.

Is this a losing battle, or is it one which has been lost already? Maybe we should revisit Simon Hadfield's suggestion re that line in the sand!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Excellent post from Peter Morley above. It just highlights again, the difficulty in where you draw the line.

Correction surely, in the light of other comments:-

Goodwood + Spa = Hooky cars.

Is this a losing battle, or is it one which has been lost already? Maybe we should revisit Simon Hadfield's suggestion re that line in the sand!

Silverstone Classic + Goodwood + Spa = Hooky cars.

And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop talking about sand!

[John Turner]

Well, I guess the list could go on, but it does seem that Goodwood and Spa have a larger proportion! Sorry about the s**d!

[Henrik Pedersen]

It is not lost lost, if FIA steps in character, and make their presence clear, by creating a serie for cars that follows FIA rules.
Please.

[one-two]

Isn't it more a case of the silverstone classic thread = the goodwood thread = the spa thread?

[terence]

Absolutely Henrik, If organizers were to get their respective meetings/races FIA sanctioned the likes of Jeremy would be able to make the required adjustments to the grids.As to the entered cars policing,surely the funds pulled in by the various ASNs could be used for this.

[simon drabble]

I think you have neatly encapsulated ten-tenths / Historic Racing Today ;o)

However the one serious point is that there is an undercurrent of long term eligible owners who are becoming disillusioned with the current historic racing trend to ever more prepped cars. Criticism in the past have mostly stemmed from those whose cars were not eligible....

Historic racing is currently an aspirational sport but if the fast in/fast out crowd move on it could create a vacuum in historuc racing last seen post Coys....

I don't profess to have the answers but I do think series organizers should feel the change - the pre 63 GT race definitely caught the mood.......

[Al Weyman]

It is not lost lost, if FIA steps in character, and make their presence clear, by creating a serie for cars that follows FIA rules.
Please.

Well there is enough on you that feel passionately why not start your own. It can be done even did it myself once as have others here who have not been satisfied. Why 63 though whats the deal there?

[simon drabble]

Al I use that as an example of a race that took place at the Classic and was much talked about. I am not saying everything has to be pre 63! just the ethos behind it of cars being less prepped and more as they were captured the imagination of both viewer and driver alike.
I do not have sufficient time energy or inclination to form a series. I only compete in the races I enjoy as I have no aspirations of winning any championship!

[john ruston]

The deal there vis that it gets rid of 904's,GT 40's and works.Makes a good grid.There will be three races for them next year run by C S

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Silverstone Classic + Goodwood + Spa = Hooky cars.

And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop talking about sand!

ah, but without the hookey cars the grids would be desert...ed -oops, sorry!

[Tim the Grey]

3x Pre 63 races? Oooh, goody. THAT does sound like fun. If only they could get one or two GTOs involved as well, life would be about right. Are there any early Cobras still around? It could be fascinating.

[John Turner]

OK, I sense that I really ought to be moving a lot of posts on this and the Spa thread to one of our old discussion threads, and maybe unstick this thread because the discussion about the Revival itself has been submerged. Whilst I understand the concern about dodgy cars at these events, it does become a bit overwhelming and probably convey the wrong impression about these big historic racing events to our readers. We don't want to put off new followers because there are still some great cars out there, good races to be seen and a load of fun still to be had by being associated one way or another with it.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

3x Pre 63 races? Oooh, goody. THAT does sound like fun. If only they could get one or two GTOs involved as well, life would be about right. Are there any early Cobras still around? It could be fascinating.

I think we need to be very careful here. Personally, I'd keep them out, because you are immediately straying into crossover stuff, especially where the Cobras are concerned, and don't we see enough of them running towards the front in the Pre 66 series? This race series is 250SWB/DB4GT territory; it was wonderful to see them out again at the Classic.

[Tim the Grey]

Hence wondering about EARLY models. There's plenty of new ones, that come out to play in the pre66 races...

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think you have neatly encapsulated ten-tenths / Historic Racing Today ;o)

However the one serious point is that there is an undercurrent of long term eligible owners who are becoming disillusioned with the current historic racing trend to ever more prepped cars. Criticism in the past have mostly stemmed from those whose cars were not eligible....

Historic racing is currently an aspirational sport but if the fast in/fast out crowd move on it could create a vacuum in historuc racing last seen post Coys....

I don't profess to have the answers but I do think series organizers should feel the change - the pre 63 GT race definitely caught the mood.......

If I was more eloquent I'd have put it something like that!

Was thinking today about some of the issues that have appeared in the past e.g.:

When scratching around to find enough money to rebuild a car and discovering that new roller rockers were cheaper than standard rockers it was tempting to fit the cheaper, longer lasting parts, the performance advantage being less of an attraction than the financial advantage, fortunately some poor Ford Anglia was robbed instead.

Similarly there was a time when the only available replacement Ford bearing caps were steel ones and if you had started with a really bare block (e.g. no mains caps) there would have been a problem if cast iron ones were mandatory.

Before historic racing became another unlimited budget class of racing there was a temptation to fit uprated components, that were longer lasting, because of cost (or even availability) issues rather than performance benefits.

In the end if people really want to make their cars go faster the easiest, and much cheaper, way is to change the driver - which has started to occur in some of the higher profile events.
Driver training methods have improved considerably - with enough money and time several t%$ds have become polished! And that doesn't require any desecration of historic artefacts!

As always these discussions are never ending and it is impossible to keep everyone happy, finding a reasonable balance is the best that could be hoped for.