Yellow-flag/safety car

[medius]

After the recent Formula Ford incident at Brands, and the BTCC accident at Snetterton, why does the rules still say drivers are racing to the line when the SC is put out? Nascar-style full track caution until the drivers reach the SC would make much more sense, especially if the SC is at pit exit and there's an incident between it and the leaders.

[Notso Swift]

I am in a different country, but when the SC is deplyed isn't it under a full course yellow? So, even though the speed may not be regulated the principles of the local control apply, which at the discression of the flag point, could also be double waved yellow if there is a suitable incident in that sector

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

I am in a different country, but when the SC is deplyed isn't it under a full course yellow?

Nope, in the UK, the racing isn't neutralised until you reach the start/finish line (and there's often not any indication of the SC until you arrive at the line). We had a big incident in our series at Donington last month because of this - SC sitting stationary at end of pit straight, 30+ train of cars come through final (blind) corner, see SC, check-up and major pile-up occurs. SC DRIVERS - PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN WHEN THE PACK ARRIVES!

[Piglet]

I'd like to see the flag and safety car boards going both ways around the circuit (like reds) rather than just in race direction.

It seems to me that often the first the drivers know about a safety car intevention is when they get to the startline at which point the front of the pack hits the brakes, the guys in the middle panic and the guys at the back come around the last corner shunt everyone else!

[McKendrick]

Yes safety car boards are rubbish!! Look at the snett touring car round, mid pack drivers hit each other and lots narrowly missed the medical car which had parked in the worst possible place!!

[Piglet]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the boards themselves...

At BTCC level where there is radio contact with the drivers (I think?) the drivers should be aware that the safety car has been deployed anyway and there is less of an excuse.

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I don't think there is anything wrong with the boards themselves...

At BTCC level where there is radio contact with the drivers (I think?) the drivers should be aware that the safety car has been deployed anyway and there is less of an excuse.

I do! IMO there should be a dedicated Safety Car Flag for example Black and Yellow quartered, do away with the boards and leave the yellow to mark the incident.

Also the deployment of the Safety Car flags/boards should be the same as for red flags.

[Notso Swift]

Quite remarkable, our SC waits at the start/pit exit (depending on track) for the leaders to come round, but the call goes out fro the CoC and the boards go out with a single waved yellow "simultaneously". This happened for everyone from my lowly State Championship level all the way to F1. I am so surprised the RAC MSA don’t do the same as the F1 boys.

[Bodysnatcher]

Putting out yellow flags and safety card boards at the same time all round the circuit does not always work either.

Look at Ernesto Viso's accident in GP2, France, June this year. I'm sure it'll be you tubed. The first marshal that he nearly takes out has the yellow flag and the board out. Earlier in the lap both were visible at other flag points. Nobody should have been racing, but Viso still ramps off the car in front violently.
They slowed, he did'nt.
They saw flags, he did'nt?

I had a good close up view of the FFords at Brands and the final accident that brought out the red had close similarities. You can argue all you like about whether the race should have been stopped at earlier decision points, but the final accident was mainly due to react safely to those signals that could be given by the marshals.

Snet's BTCC problem I did'nt see, but it sounds more like BTCC playing to it's own set of rules to enhance the "show". By ignoring the yellows that were out and racing to the line. Makes for good TV.

The problem lies in the drivers have to see the boards and flags (or even yellow flags at incidents in general) and react in fashion that ensures the safety of all.

These differing reactions to the old quartered/battenburg flag led to a tragic accident and was (I believe) the main reason for it's rapid withdrawal from use.

I'm afraid I cannot see a simple solution where extreme danger is signalled from outside the cockpit, but relies on all in the cockpit to act swiftly but safely.

KB - British F3 and GT have already dropped the requirement for a yellow to be waved when the safety car is out unless you are the post before something that requires a waved. So no waved yellows for the "crocodile".

[Ian Briggs]

All the above incidents had waved yellows before them, but not enough respect was paid by the drivers.
Why are there so many safety car laps in BTCC? Because the Observers/Clerks do not trust the drivers to respect the flags so an incident that could be covered under Waved Yellows is upgraded to safety car.
Regarding the Snett BTCC, I only saw it on TV so there may have been other reasons, but a Medical Car, complete with flashing lights, covered by waved yellows means BACK OFF.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

They slowed, he did'nt.
They saw flags, he did'nt?

You can't help idiots, however, a system should be robust so that it minimises the potential for risk.
Yellows coming out earlier and neutralising the racing must be prefered to a gaggle of cars closing in on the saftey car without warning.

Oh and BTW, Yes I have been passed under yellows (more than once) and been on the loosing side of having greater awareness of the flags than some others, (given a love tap) but I would rather gradually back off well before I need to rather than have to emergency brake at the last minute.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

You can't help idiots, however, a system should be robust so that it minimises the potential for risk.
Yellows coming out earlier and neutralising the racing must be prefered to a gaggle of cars closing in on the saftey car without warning.

Well in the GP2 race the yellows were out from turn 2 & Viso had his shunt at turn 5!!! Plenty of time for him to slow down...

[McKendrick]

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

All the above incidents had waved yellows before them, but not enough respect was paid by the drivers.
Why are there so many safety car laps in BTCC? Because the Observers/Clerks do not trust the drivers to respect the flags so an incident that could be covered under Waved Yellows is upgraded to safety car.
Regarding the Snett BTCC, I only saw it on TV so there may have been other reasons, but a Medical Car, complete with flashing lights, covered by waved yellows means BACK OFF.

From the on car footage on Setanta it was very hard to see the medical car on the track until you were on top of it. I still dont know why he parked it there as he could have put it in the pit lane exit.

[McKendrick]

[QUOTE=Bodysnatcher]

Snet's BTCC problem I did'nt see, but it sounds more like BTCC playing to it's own set of rules to enhance the "show". By ignoring the yellows that were out and racing to the line. Makes for good TV.

In all series you are allowed to race to the line under safety car conditions. Safety car conditions start after the line.

[Bodysnatcher]

[QUOTE=McKendrick

In all series you are allowed to race to the line under safety car conditions. Safety car conditions start after the line.[/QUOTE]

I'm more than aware of that general rule in the UK, for exceptions you have to read up on the particular races you have under your control that day. See my friend Mini1400's comments about FIA (GP) series, see also DTM.

Also as my good friend Mini1400, who was at Snet, (http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....9&postcount=17) points out, BTCC drivers ignored the yellow before the start/finish. I also knew that and was suggesting that it was "deliberately" ignored so as to provide a "race" to the safety car.= for a better show.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by McKendrick

I still dont know why he parked it there as he could have....silly suggestion...

Then you've never had to focus and work hard and sometimes fast on a driver/car with a severe problem on a live track.

Think about it - it's(the doc's car or whatever) being used as a mobile barrier to keep the soft squashy things in orange/black/green/red from being smeared by those drivers unable to act correctly if they actually see the yellow flag.

BTW, the Brands F.Ford incident has been you tubed, (I can't youtube from work, but search brands formula ford 2007 and you should find it)

The camera shots/angles (& I suspect the editing) do not show the whole picture. sad that, it would be a good teaching aid for all involved.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

Yellows coming out earlier and neutralising the racing must be prefered to a gaggle of cars closing in on the saftey car without warning.

Very much agree that simultaneous and a more rapid indication of a safety car period is preferable to the current system.

For quite a few UK circuits (MSV) bringing their communications system up to date would be a major improvement too.


The current system of safety car deployment notification works by line of sight. At my home circuit this means I (as observer or flag marshal) have to notice the flag/board being displayed on the adjacent post. So, if you're short handed, or you're dealing with an incident, your eyes can be elsewhere.

When the DTM & A1GP was in town we were allowed to have radio to listen to (shock horror) which improved at least one way comms from the tower.

Finally, what I was just pointing out about Viso's accident was that the weakest link is still the driver having to be aware.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by McKendrick

From the on car footage on Setanta it was very hard to see the medical car on the track until you were on top of it. I still dont know why he parked it there as he could have put it in the pit lane exit.

Well, he would have had to go past the accident, and the reverse up the pit lane, then get the kit out and pass it over the barrier!

The idea of a chase medical car is that it stops at an accident to check for casualties, not go past it!

[mattt]

At rockingham for the btcc for at least two of the clio races they had an incident before turn 1.
the 1st time the safety car came from pit exit between turn 1 and the first hairpin.
the 2nd time the safety car came from turn 4 just before the cars rejoin the oval and it was the otherside of the startline when the clios made it round.
the yellow lights were being shown round the circuit and of the gantry.
when the clios came into turn 1, clios went either side of the incident and nearly rearranged the back end of the safety car.
i witnessed this from on the pitwall and at the time i was near to some of the team managers, one of the clios that was involved, team manager was there and he called his OWN driver something like an idiot.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by KayBee

I do! IMO there should be a dedicated Safety Car Flag for example Black and Yellow quartered, do away with the boards and leave the yellow to mark the incident.

Would it be cost feasible to have a setup where if the SC is deployed a light goes on inside the car? I imagine that such a setup wouldn't be that expensive to do.