BRDA/BTRDA Class and Meeting Structure

[Roundy Mooney]

Winnie, why don't you just go to all the ERC events if you want lots of supercars??

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by winnie

Have a look at the spectators - lots of them disapper into the paddock when stock hatch and mini's come out as they are so boring to watch. Could you imagine a BTCC meeting with 10 stock hatch races before and after the BTCC race.

Using your BTCC meeting example - lots of spectators wander off around the paddock when the Seats, Clios, Porsches and Formula BMW's are on circuit. It's the same at every meeting - the headline class (BTCC, DTM, F1, Supercar or whatever) will get everyone watching and then people drift back and forth whilst the support races are on.

If the supercars and supermods got more track time then the cost of running those cars would increase too - making it even more difficult for people to make the step up. The entry fees would have to increase to cover the reduced number of cars at a meeting, engines would need rebuilds more frequently, more tyres would be needed over a season, wear and tear increased etc etc. Given the relatively high attrition rate in supercar through mechanical woes anyway then by the end of a days running you'd potentially have a very thin field left running.

Another point worth mentioning is that if the clubman classes didn't run alongside the championship classes then they wouldn't run at all - there aren't enough clubmen to have a stand alone meeting so you'd just lose them altogether.

[richorton]

Originally Posted by winnie

I would love to race a formula one car, but i can't turn up and race a formula ford around the streets of Monaco.

There is a place for clubman stock hatch, but it isn't at a British Championship Rallycross event.

How many stock hatch drivers have progressed into BRC modified or supercars - not many.

Your right not many because there wallets cant reach that far so we stop in the classes we can afford to run in . If you were to run just modified and supercars all the time it wouldn,t take long before you all got board of watching them .Thats why we have stockhatches and minis and rally car classes .Sounds to me like your more interested in btcc than you are rallycross .As for tyres i think the yokos work really well in both wet and dry ,theres only so much you can expect to get out of a tyre in the wet .

[leonidas]

I don't object to clubman classes running at the same meeting as the MSA but I don't see why a clubman class like stock hatch is part of the MSA championship structure.

The real problem with stock hatch is not the presentation of the cars but simply that the variety of cars is very limited. That's what makes it dull for the spectators. If you need an additional class to make up grids to satisfy the MSA why not adopt the 'revivals' class - where you have modified minis, TR8s, escorts, sierras and hot hatches. Still cheap but much better to watch.

Alternatively have a production class that allows things like 3 series BMWs and other performance saloons as well as hot hatches.

[winnie]

Will you read my previous posts. I and many others do not object to stock hatch and minis, but they do object to the quantity and amount of races they have. It seems like the whole meeting is 205's and mini's pottering round and round, with the occasional supercar and modified race thrown in. One of the best things they did was have the BTRDA finals at the end - the spectators can then leave at a sensible time to get home.

I can't stand BTCC and haven't been to see a race since Rouce v Soper race at Thruxton about 20 years ago, but i was using it as an example.

Revivals / classic rallycross was brilliant and the rally class is also great, but please limit stock hatch to a sensible level, which i think should be 20.

[WJM]

It seems the British are always trying to reinvent the wheel... The main problem for spectators as well as competitors is that the contrast between Stockhatch/mini and Div1/Supermod is huge.

Take a look at what people on the mainland are doing. Look at this entrylist for the upcoming VAS race in Belgium. VAS is BRTDA in Belgium.
http://www.glosso.be/deelnemers.htm
Look at the variety of cars. Sure, some look like pants. Sure, some standard cars are miles behind on the more modified cars, but in Rallycross that's not a problem because of seperate heats. The regulations are short and simple. You can make it as expensive as you want. All Stockhatch cars would be suitable (and probably very competitive) in Klasse A.

Now look at the competitors in the national classes.
http://www.otrt.be/Kampioenschappen/...s_champion.htm
Two European classes, Div1 and Div1a. Plus Div3, which is basicly the same as Klasse B at the VAS Championship.
All these regulations are based on Group A. This means stable and clear regulations. You could even keep stockhatch as an entry class. Supermods are just way over the top at the moment and should be binned. The remaining cars could be shoved into Div3/Klasse B.

In my opinion, and it seems I'm not the only one, there need to be some drastic action regarding the class structure in the UK. How many drivers are currently skipping Rallycross because they can't afford to compete in Supermods and don't want to compete in Stockhatch? How many spectators are tuning out because there are so many 205's compared to Supermod/Div 1? And you are not going to tell me that running (running, not buying) a standard BMW is more expensive than running a stockhatch Peugeot 205. But it's sure better to watch.
Yes, I'm not from the UK so my opinion is perhaps not of very high merit. I do visit Lydden Hill as a spectator and this is how I see it in comparison to mainland Rallycross.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by WJM

In my opinion, and it seems I'm not the only one, there need to be some drastic action regarding the class structure in the UK. How many drivers are currently skipping Rallycross because they can't afford to compete in Supermods and don't want to compete in Stockhatch?

I think the majority of rallycross drivers and spectators in Britain would agree with you. For years many people have been pushing for Britain to adopt Euro regs for the top classes and copy the French or Belgian class structures so there is a sensible career ladder and variety for spectators. But the BRDA aren't interested and British rallycross falls further behind...

[Audi S1]

An Idea:

Scrap the whole pointless seperate BTRDA/MSA classes for stockhatch and juniors................

Allow them to all race together, with the top 10 from the previous years BTRDA champ in each class being able to score points in the MSA class championship. All other drivers socre points in a clubman championship for cars and classes which are exactly that-clubman. Rallycross needs stockhatch and juniors as a good base for the sport and the start for all new drivers. Maximise the class though to 30 cars, meaning 3 races of 10 per heat which means not too many races and a A,B,C Final for all drivers. Maximise the juniors to 16 meaning 2 races and an A,B Final.

This way it gives te drivers sumthing to race for, and doesn't confuse the spectators with cars from same class being on track twice. Also would allow more time in the schedule to enable all the races to be complete and A,B,C, finals to run.

In terms of tv then tell al drivers that the only races that will be covered for stockhatch and juniors will be the A Final this way no confusion and allows plenty of time for supercar and super-modified races.

Its not really that complicated really!!

[Hog]

Originally Posted by ebby

Spectators pay to go and see the supercar and super modifieds primarily, which is newer machinery and the fastest.

That's a very sweeping statement ebby. Have you asked ALL spectators?

Before I was a marshal (yes - a LONG time ago) I used to come to watch close racing in all classes. Perhaps I'm being a bit nostalgic but for me the days of Formula A, B and C were a lot simpler and the racing was first class.

These days, with one or two exceptions, it's the Minicross and Stock Hatch classes that provide the excitement of close racing, even if they are not the fastest cars on the circuit. I'd rather watch close fought races than one where the leader naffs off into the distance, and half of the grid break down.

Don't get me wrong - I love the Supercars (oh for the days of Grp B) and Modifieds / SuperModifieds, but they do suffer from reliability issues which at times makes them less appealing because only a few finish or even make it to the grid in the first place.

You should come and spend time on the grid - might change your perception a little.....

[Roundy Mooney]

[QUOTE=Audi S1]An Idea:

Scrap the whole pointless seperate BTRDA/MSA classes for stockhatch and juniors................

I completley agree with you.

Allow them to all race together, with the top 10 from the previous years BTRDA champ in each class being able to score points in the MSA class championship. All other drivers socre points in a clubman championship for cars and classes which are exactly that-clubman. Rallycross needs stockhatch and juniors as a good base for the sport and the start for all new drivers. Maximise the class though to 30 cars, meaning 3 races of 10 per heat which means not too many races and a A,B,C Final for all drivers. Maximise the juniors to 16 meaning 2 races and an A,B Final.

I think this is only to complicate matters again just put everyone in the mix and give them points. 10 is far to many in a heat, you don't get a front, middle and back row for everyone which is only fair and when you have to run this many cars and also it only leads to carnage. 8 max IMHO. Putting a cap on a class is all well and good but if you don't have the numbers in the other classes to pay for the event no point in cutting of your nose despite your face. Fine when there are enough in other classes to do this but not yet.

[leonidas]

I could be wrong here but... isn't there an 8 car limit imposed by the MSA/FIA for safety reasons? If so it would be difficult to change it anyway.

[Roundy Mooney]

Seem to remember a 10-12 car stock hatch heat last year in Anglesey when Si had that head on into another car ?

[PhergAthor]

Just a question for the stockhatch pilots on this forum:

Would any of you mind if you became BTRDA-champ or MSA-class winner if all stockhatchers would run together? After all, you would always be the stockhatch-camp.

I would oppose to a class limit though. If ever you would have to turn a guy down because the class is full, it would be a loss for rallycross.

[Chessmsport]

Originally Posted by PhergAthor

Just a question for the stockhatch pilots on this forum:

Would any of you mind if you became BTRDA-champ or MSA-class winner if all stockhatchers would run together? After all, you would always be the stockhatch-camp.

I would oppose to a class limit though. If ever you would have to turn a guy down because the class is full, it would be a loss for rallycross.

You cannot afford to run a Rallycross meeting without all the entries hence why the BTRDA/BRDA run as seperate classes.......but at the same meetings.......more entries.....

Its all down to the circuits in this country having the clubs by the B*****X.
The only way in reality is to forget about Lydden, Pembrey, Croft etc and find circuits with smaller rental fees such as Blyton. Most circuits in Europe are not 'race circuits' but dedicated rallycross circuits who earn their income from the gates not from the competitors.