BRDA/BTRDA Class and Meeting Structure

[ebby]

We need to have more supercar action and supermodified races too, to at least match all the clubmans stuff, which seems to take over the meeting.

[mod] This is the comment that started the whole subject [/mod]

[silver bullet]

A couple of points ebby,
It is the clubmen that make the meetings viable, they have paid their entry fee's, why should their races be cut?
If the Supercars and Supermodified had to do more races in a meeting, how many would still be running at the end of the day? The rate of attrition is bad enough as it is.

I do however agree with you about how confusing it is for the casual spectator, with the BTRDA & BRDA races. Especially when sometimes the same people are competing in both. Maybe in future you should only be allowed to take part in one section.

[leonidas]

You can't scrap lunch breaks but I think it would be sensible to look at the number of races. Its a long day and if there is bad weather or major stoppages the organisers have little room for manoever. A simple change would be to run stock hatch as a BTRDA event. I can't see the point of it being in the MSA championship - how are you going to beat supercars in a stock 205?

It would stop people having two runs but it would make for a more competitive stock hatch events, a bigger field and a less confused paying public.

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by leonidas

A simple change would be to run stock hatch as a BTRDA event. I can't see the point of it being in the MSA championship

Once again people are looking to penalise the Stockhatches for a situation that was nothing to do with them. The meeting was not abandoned due to lack of time. It was abandoned due to adverse weather conditions.
If meetings are runing tight for time, its always the BTRDA and the Stockhatch races that are cut anyway.

[leonidas]

I'm not looking to penalise anyone or blame anyone. However if you have an overflowing programme and something goes wrong (like weather) you just don't have the option to bring things forward or call a rain delay. Give everyone one chance to race and you increase the chance of everyone getting a final.

I know the current system raises a bit more money for the BRDA but its done at the expense of the overall rallycross product. Most genuine spectators who come on here make the same comment: the race structure too complicated, I don't understand what stock hatch I'm watching. Last time there were only 8 runners in the MSA class anyway.

[ebby]

Spectators pay to go and see the supercar and super modifieds primarily, which is newer machinery and the fastest. So something needs to be addressed to give the MSA boys more track time.

Stockhatch provides good racing, but my mate who was at his first rallycross couldn't understand why it was 205s and minis getting all the track time. The majority of a British Rallycross meeting here at the moment is Formula 205 and slow minis, this needs to be looked at. It was all the more frustrating there were small grids of these cars which took up time and with the weather the MSA finals (what everyone goes to see) couldn't be run in time as it got too bad.

[PhergAthor]

With regards to what makes good racing for me: the slower the car, the fuller the grid should be.
In the good days of the Citroen 2CV-cross in the Benelux they threw 20 to 30 cars at once on the track, it looked like a bike could go faster, but it was fun to watch. Same for Stockhatch (they are considarably faster so 8 or 10 cars are more than enough) But keep them in one series. I prefer to watch 20 cars to battle it out than to watch separate series of 10 cars.
What wonders me the most is that there are so little stockhaches in het UK. This ultimate form of entry to motorsport should attract 50 cars at each event minimum.

[leonidas]

Well okay here are some positive suggestions -

1. Reduce the number of races in a day so that if things go wrong you've a better chance of getting the major races in. Dropping stock hatch from the MSA programme is the obvious step.

2. Make a REAL effort to recruit and retain marshals so that at some point in future we might be able to have rotating shifts or cover for breaks.

3. Have sensible tyre rules that allow drivers to cut tyres appropriately for extreme conditions (if you really have to have a control tyre).

4. Talk to the circuit about drainage - the biggest problems seem to have been fairly localised. It could be something that's simple to sort out.

5. Talk to the circuit about spectator safety and future developments. If the spectator bank really was in jeopardy then that needs to be looked at. However much we all love Lydden there is no way it will get a European round again without some big changes.

[Matti Alamaki]

Originally Posted by leonidas

Well okay here are some positive suggestions -

1. Reduce the number of races in a day so that if things go wrong you've a better chance of getting the major races in. Dropping stock hatch from the MSA programme is the obvious step.

If stock hatch was droped, there would be no MSA championship. The MSA require minimum grids, without Stock Hatch, all rallycross rounds would probably not be MSA compliant. RALLYCROSS NEEDS STOCK HATCH.

Personally, I think the BTRDA stock hatch should be out racing with the BRDA boys. Just as it used to be... Pat Flynn will tell you how successful stock hatch was in them days. None of that nonsense in Ireland and look at the stock hatch grids they get in Ireland. Big grids and very competitive...

[flying flynn]

Originally Posted by Matti Alamaki

If stock hatch was droped, there would be no MSA championship. The MSA require minimum grids, without Stock Hatch, all rallycross rounds would probably not be MSA compliant. RALLYCROSS NEEDS STOCK HATCH.

Personally, I think the BTRDA stock hatch should be out racing with the BRDA boys. Just as it used to be... Pat Flynn will tell you how successful stock hatch was in them days. None of that nonsense in Ireland and look at the stock hatch grids they get in Ireland. Big grids and very competitive...

You are so right Alamaki.
We used to have finals from F down to A, There were nearly 80 registered drivers. 205s, Metros, Ax, Saxo, XR2 etc.
It bought Rallycross back to prominence, plus i can tell you that we had Will Gollop driving the celeb car, he came to me for Advice[ I was on pole], on how to win the C final.
Greg Rose was my main Adversary, but with the Holland brothers, Jim Cooke, Chris Cake, etc etc , it was the hardest series to win. I managed more outright wins than any other , but lost the championship just by crashing.
It has always been the motto "Crash or Win" with Vatanen as a boyhood hero what else!!!
There was never any bother running all the heats and races then.
Myself, I believe the Marshals need a break, they do it for us the competitor, but its the Competitor that pays the entry fee [£315 at the weekend for Conor] so Stock, Mini, Modified and Super should all get the same track time.
The rotation of marshals is a great idea, but maybe us the competirotrs should help find a marshal to relieve [no pun intended] at break time [I am not talking all day, but just marshal for 30 mins to allow a break. [This could be done with grids in the morning].
Myself, I would like to see, cheaper Rallycross,.
Keep Stock Hatch its where we can grow our stars and its the bread & butter. Juniors is the training ground, i think its great.
But for lads like me who would love to be competing still, what about
"Production Supercar"
Only cars allowed, Subaru or Mitsubishi EVO, from 1991 -1996 , all standard, with all safety mods, .
You would all run controlled [Bilstein style] Suspension, standard brakes with , controlled mintex pads, control tyres, and sealed turbo restrictor.
However to please the spectators you could run an Anti-lag/non A/L class.
These would shove out 280ish BHP from a 32mm restrictor on A/L , but you could build for less than £6000
I have an EVO 2 Rally car.
Would be happy to bring to a Rally-X meeting and run at the back, to show what times it could do.
Dont want to run with Supercars as its all glass and rather mint, plus dont want to take headlamps etc out.
This same Evo 2 rally car is winning Group N outright up against much more modern cars.

Dont Bin Stock Hatch, instead, give the guys something attainable, the whole sport is short sighted, not everyone can afford a supercar or an Elise modified.
This could really see the sport back at the top.
There you go, a Pat Flynn idea for free, lads. Its over to you, although I will happily join in and run it for you!
[cue 205 challenge, RWD Challenge

Cheers Pat

[RXfan]

Im not going to put in the quote from Pat but there is a guy who speaks alot of sense with constructive and positive ideas. The stockhatch days he talks about helped to renew my enthusiasm and love for a sport which as a spectator I had started to become frustrated and disilusioned with.

[Hog]

Have to agree with you Pat - there's a lot of sense in your post.

As for us marshals - all we ask for is say 45 minutes halfway through the day to go grab a drink and something to eat. Any longer than that and we start getting bored......
If it's cold - bring us the odd cup of tea. If it's hot - cold bottled water. As for shelter - Woolworths do cheap gazebo's for £19.99.........

It's hardly rocket science is it? Amazing what a little outlay and foresight would make to us marshals.........

[Roundy Mooney]

Can someone explain why the BTRDA / BRDA MSA Championship split happened. Looking at it from the outside it just looks like a mess. I don't get the whole reasoning behind why it is so important that the championship be Msa or not as it was it a couple of years ago. From the outside it just looks like BRDA competitors pay larger entry fees for the "the privilege" of it being the msa championship with little in the way of reward for this title.

Let everyone out together and get on with the racing for the one title / Class.

[winnie]

Main difference between the BRDA and BTRDA is that the BRDA get tv coverage and is the premier championship.

I and many of my friends who have been watching rallycross for last 25 years have become bored with the meetings due to the amount of 'cr.p' that races, ie stock hatch, adult mini's, child mini's, etc. We used to put up with the few races that we used to get, but now the meetings are dominated by boring, underpowered, beaten up rubbish. I get more fun sitting next to a dual carridgeway in the rush hour.

The MSA championship needs to be Supercars, Modified and a max of the 20 best stock hatch, perhaps taken from last years championship.

Lots of you are going to say that stock hatch and minis's are needed to finance the meetings, but that is rubbish and has never been proved.

The SuperSeries must break even with the very low entry that they get, so surely the BRDA can make it break even if they throw out the BTRDA cars.

Stock hatch and mini's should run in there own meetings and see if they can draw a crowd, if not then get shot of them as they have dragged British Rallycross down.

If Rallycross wants to compete with BTCC it needs quality cars that the public WANT to watch.

In my opinion the current directors of the BRDA have made a lot of really bad decisions this year, which has done Rallycross no favours.

Last point is why does the average clubman rallycross competitor need TV. People like Doran etc gain from it as they have high profile sponsors and are always on the box, but the majority do not need the coverage as the are self funded, or have very minor sponsors. Are any of the top drivers on the BRDA board that make any of these decisions?

[Roundy Mooney]

So Winnie below is the entry list for your without stock hatch and mini rallycross.

Ollie O'DONOVAN
Andrew JORDAN
Steve MUNDY
John McCLUSKEY
Steve HILL
Dermot CARNEGIE
George TRACEY
Mad Mark WATSON
Kevin McCANN
Andy GRANT
Bob GOODING
Terry BRIGGS
Kevin PROCTOR
Dave BELLERBY
Ben POWER
Bill HARBOUR
Ian O'CONNELL
David BINKS
James BIRD
David BROWN
Allan TAPSCOTT
Mike TURPIN
Don SHANNON

That’s 23 entries and you think you can run an event on that. That’s exactly what the superseries found out when they started off thinking they could run events without stock hatch it just didn't add up.

We have been told time and time by Mondello that it is nice to have spectators but really that at the end of the day it is the competitors that pay for the track. IE all there interested in is size of entry for the event. So sorry if you are bored with stock hatch. But for the present it is what is keeping the events running until everyone in the paddock wins the lotto.

Also your use of get rid or throw out does nobody any good. It is useless to just ban cars and disenfranchise drivers. Organisers must put in place a more obtainable structure to classes and not the jump from £3500 stock hatch to £30000 modified that exists at present. There are plenty of stock hatch drivers who would love to move but as Pat said there is noting as competitive or rewarding to compete in at present than stock hatch.

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by winnie

...the amount of 'cr.p' that races, ie stock hatch, adult mini's, child mini's, etc. We used to put up with the few races that we used to get, but now the meetings are dominated by boring, underpowered, beaten up rubbish.

I'm sorry to hear you see Stock Hatch like that. The speeds may be low in comparison to the supercars and supermodifieds, but it certainly doesn't feel like that from inside the car! Personally, I enjoy watching Stock Hatches because of the inevitably close racing and skill required to squeeze the most out of standard engines and cars.

Originally Posted by winnie

The MSA championship needs to be Supercars, Modified and a max of the 20 best stock hatch, perhaps taken from last years championship.

But then no new cars can ever come into the sport! If the rule is that they must have been in last year's championship, it makes it impossible to join the championship. That doesn't make any sense, unless I've misunderstood you.

Originally Posted by winnie

Lots of you are going to say that stock hatch and minis's are needed to finance the meetings, but that is rubbish and has never been proved.

Stating it as rubbish doesn't make it so, I'm afraid. Look back on this forum and you will find testimonies from several drivers and Sir Pat Flynn himself as to the importance of Stock Hatches as a stepping-stone to rallycross and to keep meetings afloat.

Originally Posted by winnie

The SuperSeries must break even with the very low entry that they get, so surely the BRDA can make it break even if they throw out the BTRDA cars.

I'm sure the Open Championship (as the Super Series is now called) have a smaller entry for other reasons (such as not being so long-established etc.), rather than for the sake of purity of racing. I'm certain they would love to have a larger entry. The OC has a large field of Stock Hatches, too, so should they also throw them out?

Originally Posted by winnie

Stock hatch and mini's should run in there own meetings and see if they can draw a crowd, if not then get shot of them as they have dragged British Rallycross down.

Look at this another way: the BRDA and BTRDA have a mutually beneficial relationship. Running costs are lower with joint meetings, the clubmen get to play with the big boys (just as they do on many rallies, which no-one complains about) and the BRDA crowd have cheaper meetings due to the bolstering effect of BTRDA entry fees. It's good to see co-operation, a rare thing in the back-biting world of motorsport, so don't knock it when it comes along. The spectator also gets more racing for their money; there wouldn't be any extra heats or finals in the other categories even if the BTRDA weren't there, so you would see less rallycross overall. Even slow racing's better than no racing, right?

Having said this, I do think there's merit in the idea of only allowing drivers to compete in the BRDA or BTRDA. As many have mentioned before, doing both is very expensive and this also extends the number of races in an already very crowded day.

Originally Posted by winnie

Last point is why does the average clubman rallycross competitor need TV.

Everyone likes to see their mug on the telly! But seriously, the BTRDA do not charge a TV levy this year and the clubmen are never on the television and, mostly, never have been.

Right, that's my ten quid's worth. I look forward to being proven wrong on every count!

[ebby]

We need an ERC round.

That is where the sport is.

[winnie]

Ollie O'DONOVAN
Andrew JORDAN
Steve MUNDY
John McCLUSKEY
Steve HILL
Dermot CARNEGIE
George TRACEY
Mad Mark WATSON
Kevin McCANN
Andy GRANT
Bob GOODING
Terry BRIGGS
Kevin PROCTOR
Dave BELLERBY
Ben POWER
Bill HARBOUR
Ian O'CONNELL
David BINKS
James BIRD
David BROWN
Allan TAPSCOTT
Mike TURPIN
Don SHANNON

plus 20 stock hatches = 43 decent good quality cars. Could have 1/2 hour open practice for each class and then 3 heats with 4 cars per race, c, b, a and super finals which would be about 45 races of good quality racing that every-one would enjoy. Sure entry fees may go up, but drop the tv and i'm sure the fees will be similar.

With good quality meetings you could hopefully find a decent sponsor and possibly some manufacturer involvement, which could send rallycross to BTCC levels. This will never happen with the meetings as they are.

If you were to have a 2 tier system with the best 20 stock hatch having 1st option to run in next years BRC, the rest of stock hatch to do there own BTRDA meetings. At the end of the year perhaps the lowest 5 stock hatch in the BRC are relegated and the top 5 from the BTRDA get promotion, or a meetings to decide who goes up and who goes down.

If rallycross is to move on some major changes are required to the premier BRC meetings. The quantity of cars, the shambles with the tyres and the cancelation of Lydden prove the fact that the series is a mess and an embarresment.

More quality, less quantity

[Chessmsport]

Originally Posted by winnie

Could have 1/2 hour open practice for each class and then 3 heats with 4 cars per race, c, b, a and super finals which would be about 45 races of good quality racing that every-one would enjoy.

Then you would be moaning that its boring 2 hours for practice , 4 cars per race . I dont have any magic answers but to run a meeting without BTRDA / Stockhatch you need a bigger Modified class.

To keep the Supercars as good as it is you need TV. The biggest problem in this country is the cost of circuit hire, if the circuits made their money from the gates rather than the organising clubs then things could be different.

[Roundy Mooney]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by winnie

plus 20 stock hatches = 43 decent good quality cars. Could have 1/2 hour open practice for each class and then 3 heats with 4 cars per race, c, b, a and super finals which would be about 45 races of good quality racing that every-one would enjoy. Sure entry fees may go up, but drop the tv and i'm sure the fees will be similar.

4 cars per heat is my Idea of boring and others will tell you that 40 odd cars is not enough to support a meeting financially. 70 cars is a minimum in Mondello and even then we have been told at the last AGM that this figure is nearly running at a loss.

If you were to have a 2 tier system with the best 20 stock hatch having 1st option to run in next years BRC, the rest of stock hatch to do there own BTRDA meetings. At the end of the year perhaps the lowest 5 stock hatch in the BRC are relegated and the top 5 from the BTRDA get promotion, or a meetings to decide who goes up and who goes down.

Many drivers at stock hatch level don't know there budget from race to race never mind commit to 2 years to win a BRDA championship.

If rallycross is to move on some major changes are required to the premier BRC meetings. The quantity of cars, the shambles with the tyres and the cancelation of Lydden prove the fact that the series is a mess and an embarresment.

You talk as if it is so easy to just improve the quality of cars. Have you ever raced ? or do you realise the sort of money involved in just turning up for an event not including the car. How is excluding the people who have kept rallycross going for the last number of years a good decision ??

[PhergAthor]

Looks like Winnie should attend F1 races. Rallycross is not about fancy appearances. Hell yeah we have supercars that rock, but that is the cherry on the cake. The action starts at a low entry, then moves up the ladder till the supercars come out to play. And the structure is a pyramide. So you need a solid (big entry) base to have a high peak. So to abbolish stockhatch is to kill the sport.

Sure I was confused during my first visit in Lydden that not all stockhatchers were is the same series, and I would find it more suitable if they would all run together, but WTF... it also enables two pilots to run the same car.
To be completely hounest, I was expecting a lot more stockhatchers... more thinking in numbers Pat suggested earlier.

IMHO (super)modified could maybe use some update in regulations, and I mean that in a way so they were more accessible to a bigger number of pilots. In the different national championships on the main land they make the biggest entry. But how this should be done in the UK, I don't know.

[richorton]

hi all
winnie do you know what it cost to do a single event in stockhatch ? well on adv we spend £600 and thats before a single wheel turns on the car and we run in the clubmens class.A lot of us stockhatchers have familys and mortgages and bills to pay and its the only class we can afford to run in .Some times theres two events in one month so thats twelve hundred pounds to find and repair and look after the car two .tyres arnt cheap either ,At the start of this year we got 8 new tyres which cost £550 and we ll probably need some more later on this year .It must cost a arm and a leg to run in the modified class or super car class thats probably why people stay in stockhatch or minis .There s so much much fun to have in a stockhatch

[winnie]

Rich, forgot to say that i know all racing is expensive, and i am not having a go at individual stock hatch drivers, who i know are out to enjoy themselves. Put yourself the other side of the fence, sure the supercars and modified are good to watch, and a couple of stock hatch races are ok, but the meetings are dominated by stock hatch and kids mini's with the odd 'proper race'. Have a look at the spectators - lots of them disapper into the paddock when stock hatch and mini's come out as they are so boring to watch. Could you imagine a BTCC meeting with 10 stock hatch races before and after the BTCC race.

Have you looked at competing in grasstrack. For £500 a meeting you could race in most classes. If you think Stock hatch is close and exiting you should watch a 'Nationals race'. You can race any type of car from a 'standard unmodified car', 'race tuned 2 litre fwd', 'V8 mid engine hatch' or 'single / twin engined special'. Entry fees are less then £10, but there is no tv coverage. You can race just in a local league or enter the National series and finals.

[mivec]

Originally Posted by winnie

...and a couple of stock hatch races are ok, but the meetings are dominated by stock hatch and kids mini's with the odd 'proper race'...

...Have you looked at competing in grasstrack. ...

Winnie,
the mini's where very good to watch on the last event, close racing with lots of overtaking.

We are NOT talking about grasstrack here, we are talking about rallycross.
As for a cheap sport, just go walking!

Rallycross needs a low budget entry class. Most of the drivers start at low level, learn to drive, get a bit higher, and if budgets are there, move to division I. Wich junior or stockhatch driver don't dream about a 4wd supercar?
Just like every kid would be Beckham when he grows up.

The driver i know, started in VAS (flemish championship), then national and then did Division I, even some ERC events.
This is the way a nice rallycross career is build.

Not much drivers start in division I.

[winnie]

I would love to race a formula one car, but i can't turn up and race a formula ford around the streets of Monaco.

There is a place for clubman stock hatch, but it isn't at a British Championship Rallycross event.

How many stock hatch drivers have progressed into BRC modified or supercars - not many.