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Old 3 Sep 2017, 17:49 (Ref:3764159)   #151
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Originally Posted by thlbtcc View Post
Only the Subaru I believe, in a way the Quattros were weighted up in the 90s. It's definitely not a change of base weight or ride height in-between rounds for BoP and the regs are only there as a backup I believe.
Agreed - but the ability to make those changes to other cars does exist in the regulations if required.
Boost may be the most-used adjustment at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if the regulations are used in other ways if criticism of boost adjustments continues.
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 10:15 (Ref:3764419)   #152
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Have you got issues?

The STCC went to hell and back using Solution F. An utter and complete failure.
Oh my god Thats exactly the point I was making.

BoP is pants, and the ultimate BoP is giving everyone the same car. Hence the abject failure of SolutionF and STCC.

TOCA seem to contradict themselves a lot of the time. They even setup an award for the best engineered car. And yet they want to equal the playing field.
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 17:53 (Ref:3764500)   #153
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First things first: I am not an engineer and most of what has been said recently whizzed over the top of my head.

Whatever Alan Gow and his merry men do seems to work from my point of view: the racing seems pretty close.

I do however wish "boost" figures were published as listening to certain drivers constantly whining pretty much ensures I watch the races from lights to flag but little else.

We know who has what weight, and which compound of tyre, so why not the boost?
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 20:12 (Ref:3764537)   #154
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
We know who has what weight, and which compound of tyre, so why not the boost?
Without knowing the bhp, torque, gear ratios, final drive ratio etc etc it's a pretty meaningless figure on it's own.

Drivers are always quick to moan when another car pulls away on the straight but they conveniently forget to mention when they're better on the brakes and through the corners.
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 21:00 (Ref:3764547)   #155
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Makes sense: too complicated to dumb down!

So long as Sutton or Turks - the two in with a chance who just get on with it without whinging - are champion I'll be happy!
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Old 4 Sep 2017, 22:23 (Ref:3764565)   #156
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I do however wish "boost" figures were published as listening to certain drivers constantly whining pretty much ensures I watch the races from lights to flag but little else.

We know who has what weight, and which compound of tyre, so why not the boost?
The problem would be how would you interpret the boost figure given.

For example, if I were to tell you that the current boost figures were:

Ford - 1.5 bar
BMW - 1.2 bar
TOCA engine - 1.0 bar
Honda - 0.8 bar
Subaru - 0.3 bar

(they're not by the way, just examples) how would fans react?

Some would say the Subaru is too good, so should have even less boost than the rest.
Some would argue that Ford need even more.
But in that example given, Honda fans would say that the series is deliberately holding them back because they are not allowed to have the same power as others.
BMW fans would argue that they are penalised against the Ford because their set up is better.
Fans of TOCA engines cars would claim foul against the BMW.

The current series strives to create a situation where multiple drivers are capable of winning. To do so, they need cars to be balanced in ability to get results. So factors such as boost will be tweaked to prevent someone running away with the title.

All the teams know that, and choose to compete in that criteria. Too much publicity of technical data might reveal that team A would have won the title after Knockhill if the BoP wasn't applied, so it is held back to create the illusion that a 1-series, Civic, Levorg, Focus, Avensis and MG6 all perform to the same standard on a track.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 02:35 (Ref:3764617)   #157
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Just take all the excuses and put them in the mixing bowl used for reverse grids and then let each team that didn't win on the previous race weekend draw from it.

Or better yet, use a Vegas-style slot machine. You pull the handle and get your bonus (or you lose out).

"BTCC Slots -- Highest BoP adjustments in the country!"



Steve
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 11:18 (Ref:3764696)   #158
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Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
Just take all the excuses and put them in the mixing bowl used for reverse grids and then let each team that didn't win on the previous race weekend draw from it.

Or better yet, use a Vegas-style slot machine. You pull the handle and get your bonus (or you lose out).

"BTCC Slots -- Highest BoP adjustments in the country!"



Steve
I guess part of this comes down to what kind of engine they have developed. From what I understand, some have developed pure racing engine whereas others have adopted a much less racing derived approach and is more akin to a road spec engine. So you can bet the engines with the lowest boost are the race bred units and the ones derived from road spec have higher boost.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 15:03 (Ref:3764740)   #159
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Clarification especially for you from Mr Gow on the BTCC forum.

"We haven't mandated any change to any base weights, ride heights, aerodynamics or suchlike - on any car - since before the first race at Brands Hatch. To be perfectly clear, the only performance adjustments made since then are to the boost levels (plus of course the normal success ballast).



Besides, we don't need to do any other changes during the season; look at how closely matched the cars are....Rockingham being an excellent example of this. On a relatively long 'technical' circuit, in qualifying we had some 27 cars covered by less than only 1 second - the top 14 cars being covered by just half a second. Given the mixture of front and rear wheel drive, with 11 different models/body shapes and 5 different engines then I would say that's pretty amazing."

Hopefully this puts this to bed and we can go back to discussing the racing.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 16:47 (Ref:3764756)   #160
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Hopefully this puts this to bed and we can go back to discussing the racing.
Can I have a fiver on that not happening?
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 16:47 (Ref:3764757)   #161
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Originally Posted by thlbtcc View Post
"We haven't mandated any change to any base weights, ride heights, aerodynamics or suchlike - on any car - since before the first race at Brands Hatch."
Slightly pedantic, TOCA don't have aero adjusts during the season, but they do approve and balance the aero of any new cars prior to the start of the season, which I think was the point made in this thread.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 16:49 (Ref:3764758)   #162
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Snetterton 1 : Subaru
Snetterton 2 : Subaru

Knockhill 1 : Subaru
Knockhil 2 : Subaru


Rockingham 1 : Subaru
Rockingham 2 : Subaru


so every non-reverse grid the 2nd season season half was a Subaru win , this is NOT normal, simple statistics which can't be argued


ironically even the Sutton fans don't realise that if he has such a superior car to everyone else it takes away from his potential title

it's like in the old war movies they portray the german soldiers like retards who can't hit anything and easy kiled off , it actually diminishes the real allied victory over such an "inferior" enemy
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 17:58 (Ref:3764775)   #163
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Snetterton 1 : Subaru
Snetterton 2 : Subaru

Knockhill 1 : Subaru
Knockhil 2 : Subaru


Rockingham 1 : Subaru
Rockingham 2 : Subaru


so every non-reverse grid the 2nd season season half was a Subaru win , this is NOT normal, simple statistics which can't be argued


ironically even the Sutton fans don't realise that if he has such a superior car to everyone else it takes away from his potential title

it's like in the old war movies they portray the german soldiers like retards who can't hit anything and easy kiled off , it actually diminishes the real allied victory over such an "inferior" enemy
Don't you ever get bored going over the same mantra all the time? It seems that if the Team Dynamics' cars aren't winning every race, you start throwing your toys out of the pram.

And what is so unusual about one make of car winning 6 out of 16 races; that's 37.5%. I cannot be bothered to trawl back over the years, but I am damn sure that that percentage has been achieved, and possibly/probably been bettered.

As Gow said, when virtually all the grid qualified within 1 second and the top 14 within half of a second, that's pretty equal. And as he also said, that was with different engines, different chassis and different body shapes/aerodynamics.

I still think that this year is one of the closest that I can remember; not the points necessarily, but the actual racing on the track.
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 18:14 (Ref:3764782)   #164
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Don't you ever get bored going over the same mantra all the time? It seems that if the Team Dynamics' cars aren't winning every race, you start throwing your toys out of the pram.

And what is so unusual about one make of car winning 6 out of 16 races; that's 37.5%. I cannot be bothered to trawl back over the years, but I am damn sure that that percentage has been achieved, and possibly/probably been bettered.

As Gow said, when virtually all the grid qualified within 1 second and the top 14 within half of a second, that's pretty equal. And as he also said, that was with different engines, different chassis and different body shapes/aerodynamics.

I still think that this year is one of the closest that I can remember; not the points necessarily, but the actual racing on the track.

don't you get bored not seeing the facts that one car is too fast ??? let's take Dynamics or FWD out of the picture


even freaking WSR cannot really beat Subaru, have you seen Colin Turkinton's face at post race 3 interview ?????? one of the best drivers in the business in an fully established top team and they were never really able to challenge those Subarus even when they got ballast on

some people are just blind to see the obvious
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Old 5 Sep 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3764821)   #165
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don't you get bored not seeing the facts that one car is too fast ???
You're referring to the MG right?

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Old 6 Sep 2017, 08:31 (Ref:3764889)   #166
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Don't feed the troll.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 08:40 (Ref:3764890)   #167
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In the past, RWD cars have been able to fit bigger brakes on the rear of the car. With NGTC and the spec stuff, I don't know if this is possible, or whether they have to fit the same size discs and calipers on all cars? In theory, a RWD car should have better braking than a FWD car, this is of course down to setup and driving style of course, however the basic crux of it is that if a car is engineered to the best of its abilty, the RWD machines should have better braking due to engine braking the rears and also larger brakes at the rear.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 08:53 (Ref:3764892)   #168
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You're referring to the MG right?

I am refering to centre of gravity due to boxer engine cos nobody else can have such an engine due to rules

why do you pretend that you don't understand ?
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 10:40 (Ref:3764908)   #169
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I am refering to centre of gravity due to boxer engine cos nobody else can have such an engine due to rules
But where are the facts, and not perceptions?

Their lap times are not way ahead of others, just that their drivers have done well lately.

The boxer engine 'advantage' has already been addressed by ride height / CoG adjustment.
The rectification was so efficient that Plato claimed that the car was ruined, but they've since adapted to remain competitive.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 12:31 (Ref:3764930)   #170
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I think it's amazing that all the arguments over RWD vs FWD are separated by less than a second in this thread.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 12:38 (Ref:3764931)   #171
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To be honest I'm skipping most of the BTCC discussions on 10/10's these days because e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e of them turns into a FWD vs. RWD or BoP discussion...
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 12:58 (Ref:3764934)   #172
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To be honest I'm skipping most of the BTCC discussions on 10/10's these days because e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e of them turns into a FWD vs. RWD or BoP discussion...
Exactly... if you don't like the BTCC then don't watch it.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 13:25 (Ref:3764937)   #173
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Exactly... if you don't like the BTCC then don't watch it.
+1

Most people are too busy enjoying the racing to really notice/care about whether FWD or RWD are dominating
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 13:47 (Ref:3764946)   #174
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I am refering to centre of gravity due to boxer engine cos nobody else can have such an engine due to rules
Which rule prevents any other team from building and running a Subaru then? Must have missed that one just as you seem to have missed the ballast plates at the top of the engine bay to make the CoG the same as the BMW.
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Old 6 Sep 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3764948)   #175
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I think it's amazing that all the arguments over RWD vs FWD are separated by less than a second in this thread.
At last, a comment worth reading! Thanks Greem
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