Sulman Park Safety

[Sandgroper]

Leave the track alone,

Just drive to your means and ability.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Leave the track alone,

Just drive to your means and ability.

So we should be racing on circuits of 100 years ago and using safety provisions from those times?
No more valid then saying we should get rid of helmets and seat belts.Let alone HANS devices,safety barriers and sealed roads.There has been resistance to every safety improvement in motor racing saying it would ruin the fabric of the sport.Jackie Stewart could tell you a thousand stories.
Easy for people sitting on the outside of the fence and not risking lives and finances to be cavalier about safety.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Leave the track alone,

Just drive to your means and ability.

Concur...it would be like someone saying Barbagello needs work...and I mean more than just Bazza Sheene's dunny's!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Alan52

So we should be racing on circuits of 100 years ago and using safety provisions from those times?
No more valid then saying we should get rid of helmets and seat belts.Let alone HANS devices,safety barriers and sealed roads.There has been resistance to every safety improvement in motor racing saying it would ruin the fabric of the sport.Jackie Stewart could tell you a thousand stories.
Easy for people sitting on the outside of the fence and not risking lives and finances to be cavalier about safety.

Its a PUBLIC ROAD for most of the year!

PEOPLE live and work there!

Never seem so much hysterics over such a simple incident...sure, all the carbon fibre stopped the race...but Hey! that's Motorsport...

I think someone should do a check of the tunnel under the track...I think trolls are living there!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Easy for people sitting on the outside of the fence and not risking lives and finances to be cavalier about safety.

Ahhh Har, the Drivers and (maybe) Team Owners are revolting!

Motorsport can be dangerous/lethal for everyone in the vicinity...including the Officials

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Bathurst needs to be made safer and the consequences of a mistake less expensive and less dangerous where possible..

Do that and the aura of the place starts to subside. Look at Spa these days, not the challenge it once was and is now just another race track.

Instead of spoiling the track over one incident that everyone walked away from, perhaps look at the cars rather than just the track? Its what they do in Indycars and NASCAR.

[Alan52]

The 12 Hour incident has not caused my opinion even though I was sitting on the bank watching it occur in front of me.
Much of Le Mans is a public road and that has not stopped them constantly improving safety provisions in those sections for either 1 or 2 meetings a year(Depending if it is a Le Mans Classic year).
Spa-"not the challenge it was","just another track".Have you ever been there?Are you proposing we go back to the 1960's layout?The layout has not been changed since the rebuild of the early 80's except for improvements to the Bus Stop which has actually made it more flowing.The aura of Spa has not subsided.
So anyone who wants to consider safety is a troll?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Spa-"not the challenge it was","just another track".Have you ever been there?Are you proposing we go back to the 1960's layout?The layout has not been changed since the rebuild of the early 80's except for improvements to the Bus Stop which has actually made it more flowing.The aura of Spa has not subsided.

Been there many times. Sorry but in particular Eau Rouge has gone through a vast amount of change since the early 80s rebuild of which you speak. Around the track, runoffs extended, buffers, barriers all pushed back and changed & lot of other work (it has been nearly 40 years since the early 80s after all).

There is a strong body of opinion that Spa has lost some or all of its special character with all the safety changes.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Tourer

There is a strong body of opinion that Spa has lost some or all of its special character with all the safety changes.

Most likely!

I think the best thing to happen, for all concerned, is to have the relatively newcomer 12 Hour crowd move their event to a much "safer" track...there are several available, in Australasia, not to mention the new Tailem Bend circuit (ooooohh, close to world class winery's etc). Other circuits may not have the absolutely star pulling power for the TV audiences and the cheap thrills, but they will be safe...and that's the main consideration.

The several venues I can think of would all appreciate the influx of money, tourism exposure and kudos etc...

Millions have been spent on improvements to Bathurst of the last few decades, but sadly, its possibly not up to the standard our overseas visitors are used to or expect...

so let them find a really safe place to play, courtesy of the Australian people (thank you very much!) and their local sycophants...and leave a valuable racing slot at Mount Panorama for the many Australians who love the place!

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Been there many times. Sorry but in particular Eau Rouge has gone through a vast amount of change since the early 80s rebuild of which you speak. Around the track, runoffs extended, buffers, barriers all pushed back and changed & lot of other work (it has been nearly 40 years since the early 80s after all).

There is a strong body of opinion that Spa has lost some or all of its special character with all the safety changes.

Increasing run off and putting in safety barriers does not change the track layout it just makes it safer.I have never heard of this "strong body of opinion" you talk about.Can you refer me to such a discussion (somewhere on Tentenths maybe).

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Most likely!

I think the best thing to happen, for all concerned, is to have the relatively newcomer 12 Hour crowd move their event to a much "safer" track...there are several available, in Australasia, not to mention the new Tailem Bend circuit (ooooohh, close to world class winery's etc). Other circuits may not have the absolutely star pulling power for the TV audiences and the cheap thrills, but they will be safe...and that's the main consideration.

The several venues I can think of would all appreciate the influx of money, tourism exposure and kudos etc...

Millions have been spent on improvements to Bathurst of the last few decades, but sadly, its possibly not up to the standard our overseas visitors are used to or expect...

so let them find a really safe place to play, courtesy of the Australian people (thank you very much!) and their local sycophants...and leave a valuable racing slot at Mount Panorama for the many Australians who love the place!

So the Chase,Skyline sand trap,wall separating the pits from the race track on pit straight,the run off on the approach to the Dipper,safety walls around trackand the sand traps at Murrays and Hell Corners were all mistakes?Or safety improvements made prior to 2017 were OK but now things are perfect and cannot be touched?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Alan52

So the Chase,Skyline sand trap,wall separating the pits from the race track on pit straight,the run off on the approach to the Dipper,safety walls around trackand the sand traps at Murrays and Hell Corners were all mistakes?Or safety improvements made prior to 2017 were OK but now things are perfect and cannot be touched?

Of course not...but hopefully, by people with appropriate engineering expertise and those with racing experience at the venue...not by hysterical ranter's on a Motorsport Forum...you really are trying to convince the audience in your head that you are on the right track and have right on your side...but Its just not that simple (mate!)

[GTRMagic]

For a lot of years, the powers that be thought having a sandtrap coming off Skyline was a clever thing to do. The powers tbe put a concrete pad there instead, and arguably there are less safety-car-able incidents coming from that stretch of road.

Dig into the hill amd carve another 3’ or 6’ of road width out of the dirt...

Then the next pressure point shows up.. so they do more And the next one.

Anything is possible..

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Increasing run off and putting in safety barriers does not change the track layout it just makes it safer.I have never heard of this "strong body of opinion" you talk about.Can you refer me to such a discussion (somewhere on Tentenths maybe).

Eau Rouge has been changed in both layout and runoff areas several times. Changing runoffs can make a big change on the layout of a circuit as it impacts on sight lines & of course on consequences - not necessarily a bad thing, but a change. You yourself mentioned changes to the bus stop layout, which drivers didn't all like.

Perhaps if you want to find the "strong body of opinion" you could use Mr Google, go through Spa race reports and you'll find plenty of comment from drivers about the challenge of the circuit having changed. They still enjoy going there but in particular, Eau Rouge is often mentioned as being way less of a challenge than it once was.

[Tourer]

In my view it would be a mistake to make wholesale changes to the top of the mountain without considering the entire length of track, unintended consequences etc. Absolutely should not be rushed into.

Moving back walls to open sight lines for example sounds like a safety improvement but it also means that bravery & commitment is not needed to the same extent and that more are likely to be quick there, more often - set the cars up maybe a bit differently as a result and perhaps arrive at the next corner more quickly than is currently the case.

For sure improved signalling systems would be an improvement with no unintended consequences but any physical changes to the track need the sort of approach that VASC appears to be taking. If their review suggests changes would be beneficial then they'll need to take their views to the FIA, CAMS & Bathurst Council.

I guess that we'll need to show some patience and see what they come up with.

[E.B]

And lets not talk about the concrete car park sized runoff at Pouhon. Its ridiculous when a driver can make an error at say Pouhon, run off the track at high speed, not even have to lift, and can then rejoin without losing any time.

[champcarman]

Can't see a problem with putting in a chicane to the left in the area where wrecked cars usually get towed to, cars would already be braking in the current danger area so the high speeds that cause the problem would not exist and the mountain would have a couple of new corners to thrill the fans.

[Mike Bell]

Don't forget Spa 'modifications' were mainly to keep F1 happy. I can assure those that have never driven it that there are still enough places to hurt your car and yourself! Radillon and Blanchimont in particular...

Going back to Sulman Park, my thoughts are that a review of Marshal locations and signalling methods is certainly worthwhile. I'm not one to advocate layout changes and anesthetizing the challenge, but at least making sure drivers have the best available information on what is happening 'round the corner' must be a good thing?

[Umai Naa]

I would use the word 'optimise', but it'll just upset the grumpy and cynical "back-in-my-dayers".

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

I would use the word 'optimise', but it'll just upset the grumpy and cynical "back-in-my-dayers".

That's fairly pathetic, lame etc Yellow Light Man

[Umai Naa]

That was about as predicable as sunrise.

[one five five]

If there hadn't have been an accident the other week, would this have been being talked about? The drivers didn't threaten a boycott or anything in the wake of the Mark Porter accident, so obviously they are happy to race it in it's current configuration

They aren't putting sandtraps on the outside of Turn 2 at Indianapolis after Bourdais' accident there last year, or making any modifications at all, why do we need to put any in at Bathurst. This is motor racing, crashes happen.

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

For a lot of years, the powers that be thought having a sandtrap coming off Skyline was a clever thing to do. The powers tbe put a concrete pad there instead, and arguably there are less safety-car-able incidents coming from that stretch of road.

There is also now no penalty when a driver pushes too hard over Skyline, they just straightline down the tarmac run-off and keep going

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Most likely!

I think the best thing to happen, for all concerned, is to have the relatively newcomer 12 Hour crowd move their event to a much "safer" track...there are several available, in Australasia, not to mention the new Tailem Bend circuit (ooooohh, close to world class winery's etc). Other circuits may not have the absolutely star pulling power for the TV audiences and the cheap thrills, but they will be safe...and that's the main consideration.

Yet interestingly, the reason this race has taken off is because it is Bathurst, and a lot of top drivers and teams what to race there because of it's status. Which means you accept it as it is with the limitations necessary on a challenging street track.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

my thoughts are that a review of Marshal locations and signalling methods is certainly worthwhile. I'm not one to advocate layout changes and anesthetizing the challenge, but at least making sure drivers have the best available information on what is happening 'round the corner' must be a good thing?

There are a number of circuits where that would be a good thing. Too much consideration is given to line of sight between posts and not enough to line of sight for drivers. Obviously, you do need to see the adjacent posts, but if the drivers can't then they're of limited use. Not sure how much this was an issue, and bear in mind that in a previous more serious incident at another meeting, yellow flags were clearly displayed for a while before the secondary impact and allowed many cars to travel safely through the scene before someone arrived who had ignored them. Driver (and especially marshal) safety needs a lot of compliance by the drivers which cannot currently be relied upon.

Originally Posted by one five five

There is also now no penalty when a driver pushes too hard over Skyline, they just straightline down the tarmac run-off and keep going

And a lot of cars did exactly that. There is a small penalty of having to fit back in to traffic which sometimes slows them down, but often doesn't. And I have a big problem with a lot of F1 grade circuits where the demarcation are just used as a rough guide with little penalty for ignoring them.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

For a lot of years, the powers that be thought having a sandtrap coming off Skyline was a clever thing to do. The powers tbe put a concrete pad there instead, and arguably there are less safety-car-able incidents coming from that stretch of road.

It was actually a gravel trap, not sand. It was removed because every time a car went into it (even a little bit) gravel was dragged out onto the track, making the track down the hill there quite treacherous. By removing the gravel trap, safety was improved in that section of the track.

Originally Posted by one five five

There is also now no penalty when a driver pushes too hard over Skyline, they just straightline down the tarmac run-off and keep going

Agree but that was considered the lesser of 2 evils in comparison to gravel being deposited on track down the hill.

[db120176]

Originally Posted by chavez

Definitely reduced, to paraphase Peter Brock, the "consequences of making a mistake".

You could make that arguement about having a wall on the inside of the track too