Discussion of IRL and safety

[Jacques Rabbit]

My thoughts:

1. Stop using this to advance agendas. You know who you are. It's completely classless.

2. There are serious injuries at road and street circuits, too. Justin Wilson's out of the season. Did you know Mid-Ohio was a road course? Did you know it was a low-speed incident? Will Power and Nelson Philippe were badly hurt at Infineon of all places. I don't need to tell you about fatalities in 1999 and 1996 in CART, either. You know.

3. The FIA and Formula One safety are overrated. So much is down to chance. There have been so many accidents with the fence in recent times in IndyCar where drivers raced again. Just because Robert Kubica lived at Montréal doesn't mean F1 has perfect safety. After all, four or five drivers who took equally frightening rides in the same accident, or Simona at Indy this year, or Conway before in 2010. They lived and raced again. Does that mean crashing an IndyCar at high-speed into a fence is safe?

Fact of the matter is, F1 cars have vulnerabilities. NASCAR vehicles have vulnerabilities. The IndyCar has vulnerabilities. Unfortunately, the perfect scenario for a vulnerability was exploited. We spend too much time in a ****ing match about our favorite series and least favorite series using what accidents looked like to justify the safety of "our" series and talk about how "our" cars would protect in another series' wreck where they didn't, but the fact is, that ignores all the actual math (and reality) behind it...

4. Comments from a lot of people in NASCAR and F1 have been really offensive. Not all; some are very respectful in how they say it. You can have an opinion, but some of the trash is said not as concern, but as "well, my series is better than Indy" and backed up by misinformation, insults, or references to things that happened twenty years ago. So insulting.

And that's why the FIA scares me. Some politically motivated people see the FIA as this grand savior who will make IndyCar "sensible." Others don't want them on "our" territory. I'm just afraid their expertise of oval racing might not be very high, their desire to assert themselves in the American racing world be strong, their reaction be over-the-top, and the advice they give be compulsory if IndyCar wants to get their races sanctioned.

I'm fine with FIA helping. I just don't want the series to be bound to whatever they come up with. Because, yes, the FIA could actually be wrong. They could be right, too. I just want IndyCar to get a final say in if they are right, wrong, somewhere in between and not be bound to it given FIA's power.

5. I don't think the Dallara is unsafe, personally, and if the new car is even safer, better. I do wonder if pack racing is too high-risk. I don't want personal biases to get in the way, so I'm not going to even try to assess that. Someone else will do it better.

6. I am worried about the rear bumper...I know it will prevent cars from going airborne, but does it create a new problem? It seems to me that if a faster car collides into the back of a slower car the way many did...the energy's still gotta go somewhere. And I worry if the car doesn't go up...the drivers are going to get the worst of that impact. Someone with a better knowledge of this could help, I'm sure, but I just wonder if it creates more problems, or is a trade-off of two problems, or whatever. It's the right intention to stop cars from going into the fences, and they really shouldn't be there because it almost always ends in injury, but I'd hate to see total number of injuries increase even if their severity is lowered.

Something should change.

But what changes should 1) not be knee-jerking, 2) not prescribed by pretentious "experts," and 3) have everything to do with safety and not "split politics." There should be no blind "ban this, get rid of that, do this, do that, blah blah blah." Look at what you have in tracks, in cars, etc. and find ways to make all of them better in any way before you give up on them.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

My thoughts:

1. Stop using this to advance agendas. You know who you are. It's completely classless.

2. There are serious injuries at road and street circuits, too. Justin Wilson's out of the season. Did you know Mid-Ohio was a road course? Did you know it was a low-speed incident? Will Power and Nelson Philippe were badly hurt at Infineon of all places. I don't need to tell you about fatalities in 1999 and 1996 in CART, either. You know.

3. The FIA and Formula One safety are overrated. So much is down to chance. There have been so many accidents with the fence in recent times in IndyCar where drivers raced again. Just because Robert Kubica lived at Montréal doesn't mean F1 has perfect safety. After all, four or five drivers who took equally frightening rides in the same accident, or Simona at Indy this year, or Conway before in 2010. They lived and raced again. Does that mean crashing an IndyCar at high-speed into a fence is safe?

Fact of the matter is, F1 cars have vulnerabilities. NASCAR vehicles have vulnerabilities. The IndyCar has vulnerabilities. Unfortunately, the perfect scenario for a vulnerability was exploited. We spend too much time in a ****ing match about our favorite series and least favorite series using what accidents looked like to justify the safety of "our" series and talk about how "our" cars would protect in another series' wreck where they didn't, but the fact is, that ignores all the actual math (and reality) behind it...

4. Comments from a lot of people in NASCAR and F1 have been really offensive. Not all; some are very respectful in how they say it. You can have an opinion, but some of the trash is said not as concern, but as "well, my series is better than Indy" and backed up by misinformation, insults, or references to things that happened twenty years ago. So insulting.

And that's why the FIA scares me. Some politically motivated people see the FIA as this grand savior who will make IndyCar "sensible." Others don't want them on "our" territory. I'm just afraid their expertise of oval racing might not be very high, their desire to assert themselves in the American racing world be strong, their reaction be over-the-top, and the advice they give be compulsory if IndyCar wants to get their races sanctioned.

I'm fine with FIA helping. I just don't want the series to be bound to whatever they come up with. Because, yes, the FIA could actually be wrong. They could be right, too. I just want IndyCar to get a final say in if they are right, wrong, somewhere in between and not be bound to it given FIA's power.

5. I don't think the Dallara is unsafe, personally, and if the new car is even safer, better. I do wonder if pack racing is too high-risk. I don't want personal biases to get in the way, so I'm not going to even try to assess that. Someone else will do it better.

6. I am worried about the rear bumper...I know it will prevent cars from going airborne, but does it create a new problem? It seems to me that if a faster car collides into the back of a slower car the way many did...the energy's still gotta go somewhere. And I worry if the car doesn't go up...the drivers are going to get the worst of that impact. Someone with a better knowledge of this could help, I'm sure, but I just wonder if it creates more problems, or is a trade-off of two problems, or whatever. It's the right intention to stop cars from going into the fences, and they really shouldn't be there because it almost always ends in injury, but I'd hate to see total number of injuries increase even if their severity is lowered.

Something should change.

But what changes should 1) not be knee-jerking, 2) not prescribed by pretentious "experts," and 3) have everything to do with safety and not "split politics." There should be no blind "ban this, get rid of that, do this, do that, blah blah blah." Look at what you have in tracks, in cars, etc. and find ways to make all of them better in any way before you give up on them.

While I won’t address your post point-by-point, please stay with me in this rambling…
Regardless of what some might see as an agenda, now is not the time to say "Well, I think IndyCar is doing alright, safety is improving after all!" I think we've seen enough of this product over the last few years that the IRL chassis that went out of service at the end of the 2011 season was inherently flawed in its design and less-safe than (for example) the Champ Car Lola in that it had a propensity to flip wildly when it got airborne. That has a lot to do with the large relatively flat bottom most definitely added to the problem.

Also, yes there were fatalities in CART/Champ Car but I think we can all agree that we there is a certain amount of danger involved in racing. But using that as a defense for keeping the "wheel-to-wheel" racing in the sport is as frustratingly stupid as people trying to advance an agenda.

People who tend to be in favor of "wheel-to-wheel" racing also tend to talk endlessly about the “truly knowing/appreciating the history" of open wheel racing. And yet, "wheel-to-wheel" (side-by-side, flat-out, frightening, skill-devoid – not an opinion, and not political) racing doesn't have a history in "Indy"-type racing.

If you're going to race on ovals, don't put your drivers in a position where skill is removed and drivers are put in a situation where skill no longer allows them to win nor escape precarious situations, as was demonstrated Sunday. A simple spin that would have ended with bruises and a ruined race car resulted in 15 destroyed race cars and the worst of all possible situations for one driver and his family.

The "open-wheel war" is over. Clearly there is still much animosity between the factions, and this will be my only politically motivated thought: If "wheel-to-wheel" racing is what you want, how many more people have to suffer before you learn that IndyCar is not a place for you nor for side-by-side "wheel-to-wheel" racing. Try NASCAR, it's where the rest of the fans went when this damned war started to eat away the sport.

For what it's worth, I don't like the FIA. And quite frankly, I don't even see them as an option that will be a "savior" of any sort for IndyCar. There is a frightening void of intelligence in IndyCar management (forget the so-called pretension of some OUTSIDE the decision making circle) at the very least on the racing and safety sides. (And it is possibly worse than a lack of intelligence, but a snubbing of noses to safety and the drivers trying to make a living around Indy.

The very root of what is being asked for by most in this forum, and I may be speaking out of turn, is the elimination of a type of racing that has no place in the "history" of the sport, takes no talent, and puts drivers in a dangerous position wherein they have no control over what happens to them. Allowing side-by-side racing is be like mandating suspension failure at 225mph. Suspension failures happen, drivers accept this when they get into the car. Why allow for a formula that puts drivers in such a horrendously dangerous position? On top of that, in the great big packs, not only is one driver in danger, but many, many more are in danger.

Full disclosure: I was a Champ Car fan, when I came to racing consciousness CART was the product right in front of my nose, just like how most old-school IRL fans are IRL fans because Indy was the product right in front of their nose. While we may have come to our viewpoints honestly, I think there is a political split, so your point about split politics not influencing driver safety is very true. We can't ignore the danger of two-wide racing any longer. It doesn't belong in IndyCar. Fears over the current accepted style of over racing aren’t political, they come from people who want interesting racing and to cut down on the danger to the drivers we adore!!!

Chris

[Jacques Rabbit]

I think you misinterpreted my post, which tells me I did a **** job conveying what I was trying to say.

I honestly hate the pack racing. Always hated it. Think it's silly.

I'm not trying to defend it. I just don't think the first solution should be get rid of all the tracks or anything harsh like that; that, to me, is a last resort if there is no modification to the cars or the tracks they can realistically make.

I agree they need to look at changes. I just don't want to write oval racing off. It's not my cup of tea, but it has a place here, and I think it's a huge knee-jerk to just say "fine, we won't go to ovals."

They may phase themselves out if people continue to not go and not watch, though, so it could all be moot.

I'm not a wheel-to-wheel guy. Never liked the 1.5 mile tracks, never liked Michigan and Fontana with the IRL package. Hell, I never liked the IRL that much; I, too, came from CART and Champ Car. I'm just trying to give it a fair look. I'm advocating trying to find a way to make racing work at the tracks they have with the cars they will have. And if they can't, fine, don't do it.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

I think you misinterpreted my post, which tells me I did a **** job conveying what I was trying to say.

I honestly hate the pack racing. Always hated it. Think it's silly.

I'm not trying to defend it. I just don't think the first solution should be get rid of all the tracks or anything harsh like that; that, to me, is a last resort if there is no modification to the cars or the tracks they can realistically make.

I agree they need to look at changes. I just don't want to write oval racing off. It's not my cup of tea, but it has a place here, and I think it's a huge knee-jerk to just say "fine, we won't go to ovals."

They may phase themselves out if people continue to not go and not watch, though, so it could all be moot.

I'm not a wheel-to-wheel guy. Never liked the 1.5 mile tracks, never liked Michigan and Fontana with the IRL package. Hell, I never liked the IRL that much; I, too, came from CART and Champ Car. I'm just trying to give it a fair look. I'm advocating trying to find a way to make racing work at the tracks they have with the cars they will have. And if they can't, fine, don't do it.

Fair play, I didn't quite read what you were trying to say either, so my bad too. I am just frightened of the hardcore IRLers who still deny the insane disregard for safety that is pack and wheel-to-wheel racing, and they seem to be taking hard-lines. They say that people who dislike it are just partisan pro-CART people, which is asinine. The fact they still subscribe to some of the original battle lines and IRL ideologies and believe them as fact is dangerous. And it will hurt to really lose open-wheel racing in this country. I guess I was hoping that with unification the good from Champ Car could fix it, but I get the impression that won't happen. It makes me think of all the people who in Feb. 08 said goodbye to racing forever were right all along.

Less eyeballs means less money and the end of IRL-caused tragedies sooner. I hope it doesn't come to that, that the sport can fix itself even with what might be crummy ownership.

Chris

[racer69]

Originally Posted by bella

i've read this thread with interest so far, and think that there needs to be a serious look taken at everything in indycar. driving standards and ability levels included.

i'm aware there's the rookie test, but there's some drivers (no names please, in the interests of no blame) who simply are too young/too inexperienced/in way over their heads/ran out of talent in f3 back in europe. but how do you quantify who they are? and how do you stop them risking theirs and everyone elses lives?

I don't think you can say that inexperienced drivers played much part in the crash at all.

Three or four laps before the crash, Ryan Briscoe & Alex Tagliani, two of the most experienced guys in the field, went along the back straight banging and rubbing wheels with neither backing off.....

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by racer69

I don't think you can say that inexperienced drivers played much part in the crash at all.

Three or four laps before the crash, Ryan Briscoe & Alex Tagliani, two of the most experienced guys in the field, went along the back straight banging and rubbing wheels with neither backing off.....

Yes, I think the rookies are rookies. In the sense they usually have Indy-lights backgrounds and are the drivers that one wants to develop but in the meantime they are going to crash as a normal part of the learning process.

What I would emphasise more is the inconsistent application of driving standards from the series organisation and the way that this has created an uncertain atmosphere on the race track with its consequences on driving standards. From month to month they seem to lurch from wildly draconian restrictions on passing to free license to wreck. I noticed both Torpedo Tagliani and Harpoon Helio seem to be affected by a particular wild streak for example.

[bella]

Originally Posted by racer69

I don't think you can say that inexperienced drivers played much part in the crash at all.

Three or four laps before the crash, Ryan Briscoe & Alex Tagliani, two of the most experienced guys in the field, went along the back straight banging and rubbing wheels with neither backing off.....

i wasn't saying that it was a cause of this accident in particular. i'm saying that it's one of the many areas of safety in 200mph+ racing that seem to be being overlooked in favour of pontificating over the vehicles themselves. you have to set standards from all directions, not just from the bottom upwards or the top downwards. the bit that indycar can do is taking care of their own drivers by making sure that those joining are of adequate ability and as you point out, making sure the established drivers don't inadvertently set off a fatal chain of events. nobody is above punishment for driving like they're in nascar, which simply isn't suitable for single seater stuff.

hopefully this tragic accident won't set in motion a number of retirements from the old guard and lead to an influx of new drivers of varying standards.

[leonidas]

It's worth remembering what the drivers themselves were saying about the race. Dario commented that drivers were doing crazy stuff after just 5 laps into the race. If he could see it from the cockpit of a car travelling at 220 why couldn't the stewards of the meeting? Who is the driving standards observer and why isn't dangerous driving penalised with a black flag or a drive through penalty?

There has been some unfair criticism of Indycar drivers - the best are as good as anyone in F1. The trouble is there are a few who aren't up to standard and some who are good but sometimes just don't think. Look at all the nonsense in the pitlane at the Kentucky race. If you can't enter and exit a pit responsibly and without wrecking what are you doing driving a car capable of 230mph? There really needs to be a superlicense system to make sure everyone maintains proper driving standards and to prevent weaker drivers from competing at this level.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by KSR88

Oval racing at certain tracks has always been dangerous.....it always will. You are near terminal velocity very close to a wall. Whether it is old sprint cars at Winchester or Indy cars at high bank tracks the deal is the same.
Indy car is not managed all by Randy Bernard--he was appointed! The entire Indy car magmt structure has been struggling to find sponsors and support in the face of NASCAR. The poorly conceived event at Las Vegas where they baited a $5M hook for a non-full time competitor to run a 225mph bull ring was a really bad idea. It apparently was approved by the Indy Car mgmt team. They don't have the Chase so they tried to juice their last race with a circus trick. The team owners of the few major teams had to approve this and had to know it was risky business and at best some chassis were going to get trashed.
Indycar is a dim shadow of what it used to be when Penske could get Mercedes to make a special engine for just one race. They are now old, ugly spec cars---the new car is even uglier to my eye....but it is cheap. They need a sharp technical director to keep Randy Bernard and the apparently greedy owners in check.
The operating group had to think the $5M deal and the 34 cars-virtually the entire inventory of the soon to be obsolete chassis was worth the risk. The Hans device has bred alot of bravado IMO.

Couldn't agree more.

Glad you brought up the subject of technical director, I though that was Tony Cotman's role? All he seems to have become is Dallara's lapdog.

[AMP Marshal]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=378595


Obviously, we are not the only ones discussing this topic.

[Livininthinair]

Originally Posted by AMP Marshal

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=378595


Obviously, we are not the only ones discussing this topic.

Wow, you can say that again - good to know it is a wide ranging topic of conversation. I am also glad to see there has been a driver meeting called, the silence has been deafening this week... I'd like to be a fly on the wall monday...

[Xpunk75]

This was posted sometime ago before the actual Las Vegas race took place. Some interesting thoughts from JV. This caught my attention.

"I'm not really interested," said the outspoken Canadian. "If you can do it with a team like Penske, you know when you sit in the car and have a missile - it will be perfect," he told Autosport magazine this week. "If you do it as a last-minute, then no ... You risk killing yourself for nothing," he said, adding: "You end up doing stupid things to get the big prize."

Article can be found here.

http://www.crash.net/indycar/news/17...vegas_bid.html

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by racer69

I don't think you can say that inexperienced drivers played much part in the crash at all.

Three or four laps before the crash, Ryan Briscoe & Alex Tagliani, two of the most experienced guys in the field, went along the back straight banging and rubbing wheels with neither backing off.....

How do you "back off" with such flighty cars in a tight pack of 34 cars on such a track? "Backing off" or checking up is what caused the airplane style crash.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Xpunk75

This was posted sometime ago before the actual Las Vegas race took place. Some interesting thoughts from JV. This caught my attention.

Article can be found here.

http://www.crash.net/indycar/news/17...vegas_bid.html

Some prophetic comments.

He wasn't the only person to voice concerns. Quite a few drivers made comments publicly and in private expressing their concerns before the race.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

How do you "back off" with such flighty cars in a tight pack of 34 cars on such a track? "Backing off" or checking up is what caused the airplane style crash.

The frightening thing is, there is a large faction of (at the very least) fans who choose to ignore that.

How they could look at Kentucky 2011 and say it is better than Michigan 2000 or 1998 or any number of CART oval races is insane.

I tried, I really, really tried to support open-wheel but if that is the core of the fanbase I'm out. I don't like to associate myself with bloodthirsty lunatics.

Chris

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

The frightening thing is, there is a large faction of (at the very least) fans who choose to ignore that.

How they could look at Kentucky 2011 and say it is better than Michigan 2000 or 1998 or any number of CART oval races is insane.

I tried, I really, really tried to support open-wheel but if that is the core of the fanbase I'm out. I don't like to associate myself with bloodthirsty lunatics.

Chris

The other stakeholders bear more responsibility. The fans, particularily the casual fans (if there are any of those left!) take their cue from the major stakeholders such as the drivers, teams, the organisation, that it's all OK. The major stakeholders did vioce strong criticism about this dangerous madness but they gave their consent in the end. Alot of the serious fans voiced their dissent as strongly.

As well as being dangerous, it was an idea that also demeans the sport and its drivers. Whatever you think about the quality of the regular grid, that a old turkey driver can just arrive, beat all the regulars and take the $5 million is as impossible as it openly insulting the sport, imo. It all comes from the folly of appointing an outsider.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

It all comes from the folly of appointing an outsider.

Very strongly disagree.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

What I would emphasise more is the inconsistent application of driving standards from the series organisation and the way that this has created an uncertain atmosphere on the race track with its consequences on driving standards.

For me, this is one of the absolute key aspects to the whole Indycar safety thing...

I'm not the most technical guy in the world, so don't really have the expertise to disect the ins and outs of that side of safety, but...

There is absolutely no consistent ruling on any aspect of driver standards... And in a series where probably one third of the drivers are inexperienced, or perhaps less talented than they could be, it's a recipe for disaster. At the very least, it is a recipe for embarrassing events like the one we had in Toronto earlier this year.

And before people start jumping up and down... I'm not saying this had anything directly to do with the Las Vegas tragedy. However, it creates an environment where drivers are less careful about their actions.

It's like a basketball, or soccer game... The first few calls, or non-calls, will let the players know what they can and can't get away with... The inconsistent - and frankly ineffective - officiating of this series has created an atmosphere of, "well, I don't have to be too careful - there's every chance I'll get away with it".

I know we are talking about a market where NASCAR is king, drivers are let at it and rubbin' is racin'... But these aren't NASCARS... They are completely different.

The Las Vegas event, on a NASCAR track, with a five million dollar incentive, huge field and artificial pack racing had a distinct NASCAR feel to it.

I repeat, this isn't NASCAR - and those upon high need to understand that it is a totally different kettle of fish. They need to stop trying to create open wheel NASCAR, because they are playing a very dangerous game if they don't...

[jondownunder]

A bit of news from the drivers' meeting today:
http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/st...afety-concerns

[mountainstar]

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no309.html

Informative piece from people in the know that are not snorting kool aid nose candy.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

A bit of news from the drivers' meeting today:
http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/st...afety-concerns

More pr fluff. "We take safety seriously". Well they have always said that.

[mountainstar]

Bobby Unser weighs in:

http://www.racer.com/bobby-unser-bla...rticle/214963/

[mountainstar]

Paul Tracy nearly died at Vegas:

http://lockerz.com/s/149142420

http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/...ycar-concerns/

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no309.html

Informative piece from people in the know that are not snorting kool aid nose candy.

Gordon Kirby is exellent as ever. I'd like to know more, as to why Bruce Ashmore believe's the new car isn't a big enough change? Hopefully He will be able to explain more in next week's edition.

[JagtechOhio]

Ashmore lectured on the phone for an hour one day, much of which concerned his insistence that high downforce from ground effects was the way to go for the new formula. Guess not.

My guess was that flat bottom cars with relaxed regulations on selective downforce would prevent flat-out lapping and further create speed differential at various points on the track due to the variation in drag levels. That was two years ago.

Mike Cannon has it right. Nobody gives a crap about what they are doing. Until the lack of foresight highlights the stupidity of the entire exercise, that is.