[BTCC] BTCC 2018 Rumours & Silly Season

[S griffin]

They need to keep things stable, which is why NGTC works so well and of course the racing is more important than anything, which is why it is here to stay

[geordiecriag101]

At the BritCar Endurance Series final last year, at Brands on the Indy Circuit there were a number of TCR cars entered and looking thru the timing logs from TSL these were the fastest laps i could find:

Lines / Taylor - SEAT Leon Cupra TCR - 50.360
Cocker / De Haan - Audi R3 TCR - 51.752

At RD1 of the BTCC last year, Jeff Smith took pole with a 48.367. So there is a 2 second gap. But unless you have both cars there at the same time, driven by the same driver its almost impossible to compare the 2.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by RS67

It isn't all a case of how fast the cats are. BTCC is very high profile with an excellent TV package. A TCR car could be 2 seconds quicker round Brands Hatch, it doesn't mean teams will do that instead if they aren't getting the tv coverage for their sponsors.

I know the BTCC brings more to the table in that regard, but for the smaller teams who rarely get the TV coverage (which with current grid sizes is probably a good 2/3rds, remembering that even the 'mighty' Jason Plato fell off ITV's radar last year), would you rather spend circa 200-300k to pootle round at the back and only get featured on TV when your mediocre driver (with deep pockets) puts it in the gravel (again!) or spend circa 100-150k (most likely with better driver whose pockets don't need to be as deep) for the same exposure (IE none) and with a better chance of winning some silverware and even dominating the championship?!

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The BTCC has always wanted control over the regs it uses.

I think they are still burned by the supertouring debacle and then the spiralling costs of S2000.

As much as I disagree I think it’s a good thing for the BTCC to be separate in that sense. I think if both options were on the table TCR regs would be the obvious choice, however Gow would then lose control over the regs.

That's the point I'm making, TOCA want the control, hence not embracing TCR, but they're going to have a hard time justifying the choice if TCR gains traction in the UK.

They struggled to keep S2000 out when they proved to be more popular than the BTC regs with more teams preferring to go down the route of buying an S2000 car rather than building a BTC one.

NGTC still has that issue to some degree. With few used/customer cars on the market, most teams rely on having to build a car from scratch or at least buy the remnants of a team and re-engineer what they have, and with no second-hand market outside of the BTCC it’s a lot of investment into a dead end product. (Heck even most super tourers found lives in Formula Saloons and hill climb events abroad).

In order to be at the sharp end of the grid requires money. Even if the cost of the car is capped, the engineering expertise and staffing cost starts rise. It gets to a point again where teams can't raise the funds and drop out and if BMR and Motorbase (and even Team Dynamics when Honda UK pulled back) in past years are anything to go by even the 'big' teams aren't immune to it.

TCR's rise to success follows GT3's path utilising customer cars, take the development away from the teams and costs are heavily reduced. Sure they don't have live TV, but as F1 has proven, the way the world watches sport is changing and more people are using social media and the internet to engage with the sport. If they do it right TCR UK could succeed and rival BTCC a few years down the line!

Anyway, the future has just been revealed: https://www.touringcartimes.com/2018...c-touring-car/

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by BobJones

Also, TCR cars are just a bit crap.

It's just that no one else came up with a better solution.

Yes, but if only 1-2 secs off the pace of an NGTC car costing almost twice as much, what does does that say about NGTC?

[S griffin]

I think last season was one of the best for exposure, as you remember not only did 34 drivers score points, but 31 (I think?) of them finished in top 10 at least once, showing the grids more competitive and it’s no longer a case that some teams are only featured when they are in the gravel. Hope 2018 sees more of the same

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by geordiecriag101

At RD1 of the BTCC last year, Jeff Smith took pole with a 48.367. So there is a 2 second gap. But unless you have both cars there at the same time, driven by the same driver its almost impossible to compare the 2.

Not to mention differences in tyres, fuel load etc. I'm sure I've read from drivers who have driven both that there is nothing in it in reality. Given performance per dollar the TCR is miles ahead.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

I know the BTCC brings more to the table in that regard, but for the smaller teams who rarely get the TV coverage (which with current grid sizes is probably a good 2/3rds, remembering that even the 'mighty' Jason Plato fell off ITV's radar last year), would you rather spend circa 200-300k to pootle round at the back and only get featured on TV when your mediocre driver (with deep pockets) puts it in the gravel (again!) or spend circa 100-150k (most likely with better driver whose pockets don't need to be as deep) for the same exposure (IE none) and with a better chance of winning some silverware and even dominating the championship?!



That's the point I'm making, TOCA want the control, hence not embracing TCR, but they're going to have a hard time justifying the choice if TCR gains traction in the UK.

They struggled to keep S2000 out when they proved to be more popular than the BTC regs with more teams preferring to go down the route of buying an S2000 car rather than building a BTC one.

NGTC still has that issue to some degree. With few used/customer cars on the market, most teams rely on having to build a car from scratch or at least buy the remnants of a team and re-engineer what they have, and with no second-hand market outside of the BTCC it’s a lot of investment into a dead end product. (Heck even most super tourers found lives in Formula Saloons and hill climb events abroad).

In order to be at the sharp end of the grid requires money. Even if the cost of the car is capped, the engineering expertise and staffing cost starts rise. It gets to a point again where teams can't raise the funds and drop out and if BMR and Motorbase (and even Team Dynamics when Honda UK pulled back) in past years are anything to go by even the 'big' teams aren't immune to it.

TCR's rise to success follows GT3's path utilising customer cars, take the development away from the teams and costs are heavily reduced. Sure they don't have live TV, but as F1 has proven, the way the world watches sport is changing and more people are using social media and the internet to engage with the sport. If they do it right TCR UK could succeed and rival BTCC a few years down the line!

Which is why, (in my opinion) a number of BTCC teams have initially expressed an interest in TCR UK (plus there's a chance if it did take off, but not take over, it could become a good feeder series for The BTCC.)

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

remembering that even the 'mighty' Jason Plato fell off ITV's radar last year),

To be fair, I think that this was more to do with Plato keeping himself out of the limelight rather than ITV not featuring him. It was obvious, especially towards the end of the season, that he couldn't realistically answer the burning question of why Sutton was out front, and he was acting as a mobile chicane towards the back of the field.

Far better, in those circumstances, to stay out of the way of the cameras. The drivers, if they are not in the leading few, do have the option of not appearing on the TV.

[Alfisti]

JP, according to info I had, chose to lay low. Remember, here's a guy who was genuinely confused - and no doubt upset - as to why he was struggling.

I still suspect that crash affected him mentally - even if he hadn't (possibly hasn't still) realised. I totally lost my mojo after a nasty practice shunt.

[porsche962fan]

doesn't make sense , he had much more nasty crashes like rolling over

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by geordiecriag101

At the BritCar Endurance Series final last year, at Brands on the Indy Circuit there were a number of TCR cars entered and looking thru the timing logs from TSL these were the fastest laps i could find:

Lines / Taylor - SEAT Leon Cupra TCR - 50.360
Cocker / De Haan - Audi R3 TCR - 51.752

At RD1 of the BTCC last year, Jeff Smith took pole with a 48.367. So there is a 2 second gap. But unless you have both cars there at the same time, driven by the same driver its almost impossible to compare the 2.

I think super tourers were doing the 1999 Brands Indy layout in about 0:46 - 0:47

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

doesn't make sense , he had much more nasty crashes like rolling over

Makes perfect sense to me, even if that was or wasn't the real reason.

As each year passes, my attitude to risk changes. I used to be a pretty decent skier - I could ski quickly before I could run, spending most winters in Norway after my fourth birthday - yet on one of my recent skiing trips, I kept on stopping on slopes that I would have sailed down earlier in my life to evaluate the risk. And I drive now in a similar way, driving defensively rather than the way that I drove 50 years ago.

Plato is get on a bit, and there is every possibility that with a family and responsibilities - maybe grandchildren, I don't know - he has been affected by what was a pretty severe shunt at Brands. Only he knows, and we cannot possibly testify to the operation of his mind.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

To be fair, I think that this was more to do with Plato keeping himself out of the limelight rather than ITV not featuring him. It was obvious, especially towards the end of the season, that he couldn't realistically answer the burning question of why Sutton was out front, and he was acting as a mobile chicane towards the back of the field.

Far better, in those circumstances, to stay out of the way of the cameras. The drivers, if they are not in the leading few, do have the option of not appearing on the TV.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

JP, according to info I had, chose to lay low. Remember, here's a guy who was genuinely confused - and no doubt upset - as to why he was struggling.

I still suspect that crash affected him mentally - even if he hadn't (possibly hasn't still) realised. I totally lost my mojo after a nasty practice shunt.

I meant more that he didn't really show up during races as he was so far down the order. Unless there's a particularly good battle going on mid-pack, you only tend to see the top 10 cars regularly on screen.

[HCR]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think super tourers were doing the 1999 Brands Indy layout in about 0:46 - 0:47

Wasn't Graham Hill Bend faster back then though? It got re-profiled at some point

[CM388]

Originally Posted by HCR

Wasn't Graham Hill Bend faster back then though? It got re-profiled at some point

I believe that was done for the 99 season iirc.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

doesn't make sense , he had much more nasty crashes like rolling over

It was a brutal sudden stop... that's the kind that really shakes you up. He broke bones, and I believe that was a first for him.

The spectacular flips and rolls (such as he had at Donnington in the Chevy) dissipate energy so the body (car and driver) don't take one single almighty blow. Compare for example the crash in a rally car that severely injured Robert Kubica - it didn't look much - to his scary F1 accident in Canada.

[Craner Curves]

Probably the worst accident since the one on his Seat in 04 at the same location. At least the massive one at Croft in the Vectra was dissipated by hitting Tarquini first!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Compare for example the crash in a rally car that severely injured Robert Kubica - it didn't look much - to his scary F1 accident in Canada.

Not sure that's a valid comparison - it wasn't the sudden stop that did the damage in the rally crash - it was the armco penetrating the car. The car was effectively 'kebabed' on the armco - if had been a sudden stop he'd likely have been much better off.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Probably the worst accident since the one on his Seat in 04 at the same location. At least the massive one at Croft in the Vectra was dissipated by hitting Tarquini first!

The one that resulted in Watts' car looking like this...

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Greem

The one that resulted in Watts' car looking like this...

Your picture doesn't seem to be available; certainly not to me, anyway.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Your picture doesn't seem to be available; certainly not to me, anyway.

Hrm. OK, try this...

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Greem

Hrm. OK, try this...

Wow. I guess it vaporised into thin air?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Greem

Hrm. OK, try this...

Works perfectly. Thanks, Graham.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

It was a brutal sudden stop... that's the kind that really shakes you up. He broke bones, and I believe that was a first for him.

.

didn't Dan Welch have such brutal accident in GT racing with broken pelvis and back in BTCC at Thuxton he was finally en route for a podium when some TOCA part failed on him


maybe this affects some drivers while others not

[medius]

Question 1. Are we done with anymore announcements before media Day, or just loose ends and liveries then?

Q2.what have been the most surprising and most underwhelming announcements for you so far?

Most surprising for me was the Norlin/The Range sponsor deal. Not sure about the underwhelming announcement was, it's been pretty eventful all silly season with more to come too.