Historic Racing - What Next?

[terence]

O.K ,so We,ve done the continuation thing and it would seem that some Series Organizers have taken notice of what,s been said.What would the ideal Race Meeting be like.We know that we have plenty of capable drivers who are more than willing to give thier all to give spectators value for money etc what else can be done to improve our meeting,s?

[zefarelly]

ROck concerts, free beer and go go girls ?

[john ruston]

To many meetings and not enough non profit clubs organising.
Bring back the old days .This has all happened before when Webb ruled and people built fancy race cars out of ERA's.etc That was stopped but in the last five years it has restarted .People should go back and remember its a hobby .Its total B.S. to worry about what free food you are given and all that stuff.Its Prescot at the weekend,go to a proper event and play find the transporter

[John Turner]

Well, there are a number of classes not catered for, and as the years pass, new categories will drop into the historic scene. However, I agree with John; there are too many historic meetings now; a victim of its own success in a way.

I also agree that it should not be take too seriously, although that can work both ways. If it's not to be taken seriously, why are we getting hung up about replicas/continuation cars? Yes, I do know why; I feel strongly about it myself, but I use it as an example of why we need to qualify what we mean by 'not take it too seriously'.

As for the presence of transporters, I have no particularly strong views as long as they are not parked inconsiderately. Yes, you may consider that it indicates wealth in the historic racing scene but without that wealth would we see some of the great and rare cars that it is our privilege to watch. And what about those who earn their living by preparing cars for wealthy customers. What makes more sense; turning up with say 4 cars in one transporter, or using 4 trailers?

Anyway, this is getting off topic. What classes of cars not currently catered for by the historic racing scene would you like to see racing again?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Too many meetings and not enough non profit clubs organising.

The success of the category has caused this though.

Originally Posted by john ruston

Bring back the old days .This has all happened before when Webb ruled and people built fancy race cars out of ERA's.etc That was stopped but in the last five years it has restarted .People should go back and remember its a hobby .

I'm not sure what the "old days" really were. Remember they used to run the Yeoman Credit historic F1 cars at the GP. Subsequently someone came up with a historic festival and from there we know what happened. So I think we have to accept that the profit making organisations are here to stay or at least until us profit centres run out of cash.

So what to do?

I think we now have the ability to run a kind of "Historic Circus", whereby say 7 events in a season built around the various categories could be staged.

Those 7 could be:

Brands Historic Superprix, Silverstone Classic, Spa 6hrs, Le Mans Classic, Pau, Snetterton Guards Trophy and Chimay for example.

Each organisation could run an event and invite the others to provide grids. This would allow a rotation of categories with drivers and cars racing in other events when not at the "big" ones. Thus those who run with CTCRC f'rinstance, could plan to go to one or two of the "festival" events within their calendars.

Gentlemen Drivers could be racing at other events but appear at two of the 7 main events. I hope you see my point here.

Clearly it wouldn't please all the people all the time but let's be fair, there are "historic" categories out there that just won't ever fit with Goodwood, but they still deserve a bigger stage. Group C is an example.

I've excluded Goodwood from my list because it is unique and really doesn't come into the "fun" event categories.

[terence]

I can agree with whats been said so far,the Old day,s were very good,much of which was outlined elsewhere,drivers in bar,s where the paying public could actually feel "Part of It" etc.I personaly feel that there is a case of "My transporter is Bigger Than Your,s" and I,m going to park where I want.
There are too many so called "Historic" event,s, a sign that most club,s want in on the action?.I think that Masters,HSCC are the leading light,s on this stage and as Peter said ,there could be a 7 or 8 series of events at the better circuits,there were perhaps one or two areas over the weekend that could be improved upon to allow more access to the paying public etc,but in the ideal world we would have a series that took in all of the premier circuits,as listed earlier,that would cater purely for "True FIA Car,s",be properly policed etc,etc.

[john ruston]

Peter-8 major festivals a year ideal but having 4 in UK is to many
John-Have a big problem with all yhe vehicles in the main paddock.It is not necessary at Goodwood or Le Mans and they have the same or more cars.The motorhomes are in their own park and transporters in their park.
Other Points-The drivers find Silverstone a perfect circuit but I have to agree its lousy for the punter.Many of the teams complained about the cicuit officials although we had no problems and it is a bad job to have

[Slippy Diff]

Good circuits.

Good cars.

Sensible entry fees and give value for money.

All cars pre 65.

Everything to run on Dunlop L or M section, no exceptions. You want sticky tyres, then go and race something modern.

No fancy, elitist, certain people only areas.

Throw out those who blatantly cheat. Just because they've got money and some of the rarer cars is not a reason to condone it.

Seriously strict scrutineering.

Don't allow any car that turns up looking like a christmas tree i.e. keep stickers and signwriting to an absolute minimum.

A bloody good party at the end of the weekend.

[john ruston]

Good start
Only whinge is that cheating is cheating and not connected to the amount of money you have.Ther is no connection.
The rest of the points are well made
The major question is when do you have the PU.On Sat people drive on Sun and on sun most people have gone home.Answer that one

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Only whinge is that cheating is cheating and not connected to the amount of money you have

Hee hee, just fishing with that one. You're right, there is no direct connection. However I've been in many a scrutineering queue where the trouble makers and culprits are at the large end of the salary scale..

Originally Posted by john ruston

The major question is when do you have the PU.On Sat people drive on Sun and on sun most people have gone home.Answer that one

We used to stop on the Sunday night and drive home Monday. Make it part of the regs. Get people to socialise together at the meetings, it's important. Putting them in some fancy posh nosh tent where they don't feel comfortable or really welcome doesn't help things.

[Peter Mallett]

John,

Yes they were examples certainly no more than 2 in the UK.

Can't agree with pre 65 because life and racing moved on and you'd exclude some exciting cars like the Formula 1 cars from the 70s.

We've covered original/continuation elsewhere so no need to drag it into here.

But clampng down on cheats wouls increase grids, however it takes a well funded organisation so you need to pay more. Or do what you're supposed to do and protest those who are cheating.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Can't agree with pre 65 because life and racing moved on and you'd exclude some exciting cars like the Formula 1 cars from the 70s.

I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a seperate and specific category (or categories) of racing for anything post 65.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

But clampng down on cheats wouls increase grids, however it takes a well funded organisation so you need to pay more Or do what you're supposed to do and protest those who are cheating.

Just needs organisers and promoters who have the balls to nail the cheaters in the first place, at scrutineering, that's what it's for.

[Peter Mallett]

Scrutineering is really for safety. Umless there is something blatant, it won't be found.

You are askng the organisers to do your job if you want them to tear down engines etc. for you.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Scrutineering is really for safety

At every international event I ever did, the car's FIA papers were checked to ensure its suitability to be entered for whatever race I was being scrutineered for. Isn't the term, 'Eligibility Scrutineer'

[Peter Mallett]

Which is my point. Is the car as it appears in the papers and is it safe? I can see the rollcages etc. so its safe and it is a Healey 3000 with the correct reg no/chassis plate so it passes.

If the engine is 4l the scrute won't know and can't check. That's why you pay to protest. If you want that ability all the time then add the cost to entry fees, make every meeting three days and strip down every car.

Failing that we have to live with the current honour system.

While I'm at it I really do find no good reason to restrict historic racing to Pre 65. Especially as this is the area of most controversy.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Which is my point. Is the car as it appears in the papers and is it safe? I can see the rollcages etc. so its safe and it is a Healey 3000 with the correct reg no/chassis plate so it passes.

If the engine is 4l the scrute won't know and can't check. That's why you pay to protest. If you want that ability all the time then add the cost to entry fees, make every meeting three days and strip down every car.

Failing that we have to live with the current honour system.

While I'm at it I really do find no good reason to restrict historic racing to Pre 65. Especially as this is the area of most controversy.

I don't want to restrict it to pre 65, Peter, just provide a different category for post 65 cars; historic is widely used for pre 65 so what about something else for post 65. In practice for a race at Spa a few years ago, I was passed by an Escort on slick tyres who was racing in the same race. Didn't seem quite fair to be on Dunlop Ls in a car at least ten years older!

Taking the Healey example, when racing in the AH Club championship, we were not only subject to the organising club's scrutineers but also an eligibility scrutineer provided by BARC.
It's not hard to check random cars for engine capacity, diff irregularities (nothing to do with my state of mind!), tyres, wheels etc. Roller rockers, for example, can often be picked up by looking down the oil filter cap.

As I've said before, most of the organisers and those in the know, know who the usual culprits are. It is therefore not hard to start somewhere. The honour system is plainly not working.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes but you are talking about thirty cars, not hundreds.

As to categorising, it is already happening, Pre 65, Group 5 AppJ, Group 1, Group 2. Its only confusing if the races are mixed category.

So yes, separate the classes but don't restrict it to pre 65.

[Peter Mallett]

Here's another one.

If we were to have those "festivals" then the commentary team should go with the circus. Then invite the local commentator to join them at each circuit.

Thus you'll get consistency in race coverage and the input from the local speaker too.

I'm warming to this aren't I? Better go and lie down.

[john ruston]

How about a 30 year gap so 1977 or to the end of that particular FIA section.
More races with a wider age span and run these in sections as HSCC did at Spa last year.I see no reason why you cannot run a full grid at Spa for sports cars up to 1952 including pre-war
On checking cars-We will be at the 'Ring next week and they check cars in ADAC races.We have been checked against our papers twice and have no problem with it.Basis should be capacity and weight

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

How about a 30 year gap so 1977 or to the end of that particular FIA section.

Well certainly a cut off but again it would probably have to be mid eighties (Group C f'rinstance).

Originally Posted by john ruston

More races with a wider age span and run these in sections as HSCC did at Spa last year.I see no reason why you cannot run a full grid at Spa for sports cars up to 1952 including pre-war

Yep, as I said more categories and rotate them through the series.

Originally Posted by john ruston

On checking cars-We will be at the 'Ring next week and they check cars in ADAC races.We have been checked against our papers twice and have no problem with it.Basis should be capacity and weight

I agree but if you take the cost of entry to Spa for example, it is higher than other events and I suspect it is to cover this very issue. Or at least the need for the additional personnel.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Here's another one.

If we were to have those "festivals" then the commentary team should go with the circus. Then invite the local commentator to join them at each circuit.

Thus you'll get consistency in race coverage and the input from the local speaker too.

I'm warming to this aren't I? Better go and lie down.

Now I'm talking to myself!

Regular commentators for each event:

Ian Tichmarsh/Brian Jones.

Special guests: Murray Walker, Marcus Pye, anyone else?

[johngee]

David Addison is pretty good too ........and he didn't tell me to say that!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Now I'm talking to myself!

Regular commentators for each event:

Ian Tichmarsh/Brian Jones.

Special guests: Murray Walker, Marcus Pye, anyone else?

Marcus said he cant do it,apparently too busy with HTPs.

[HiRich]

I strongly agree with the idea of an informal "circus" of premier events. Each would have its own themes - both of cars and atmosphere (GRM is the fancy dress, Silverstone is "the owners clubs", etc.). I wouldn't argue at a bit of collusion between circuits and promoters to ensure:
- A suitable gegraphic spread
- Avoiding calendar clashes
- Carving up the various series so there's a bit of rotation
I can see a British cartel (add in Oulton Park Gold Cup and a VSCC event), with a watching brief on other foreign events of note. There would be opportunities for cross-promotion, and incentives to get foreign cars over for a tour.

Beyond that, I can see a case for historic racing moving slightly away from the mainstream. An historic racing magazine perhaps? I also envisage a cross-club trade body to do more to:
- Market the sector as a whole
- Act as a unified body with the MSA
- Bring large promoting clubs and small owners clubs together
- Identify opportunites for new series, splitting series or amalgamating series.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by HiRich

Beyond that, I can see a case for historic racing moving slightly away from the mainstream. An historic racing magazine perhaps? I also envisage a cross-club trade body to do more to:
- Market the sector as a whole
- Act as a unified body with the MSA
- Bring large promoting clubs and small owners clubs together
- Identify opportunites for new series, splitting series or amalgamating series.

There is an Historic Racing mag but it is subscription only and anything under £30k or newer than 1965 is ignored. But the point is well made however niche magazines don't sell so a web based subscription only magazine might be better.

But, certainly a more homogeneous approach to the entire discipline would be of benefit. That alone would improve events because clashes would be reduced.