Historic Racing - What Next?

[zefarelly]

'66 is when the International racing stage changed considerably, therefore it makes a good cut off point, with the (slower than I thought) rise of late 60's and 70's historic motorsport we have another entity entirely.

scrutineering should be for eligibility ( series organisers responibility) and safety (MSA) papers must be presented, cheats must be excluded, full stop!

Assuming an organiser wants to eliminate cheats then he will acquire the knowledge, or knowledgable representative to inform of non conformance etc, its not rocket science, and I don't believe it needs engines being strippped down in the paddock.

[terence]

If any car keeps storming off into the distance leaving similar cars behind,apart from a different Diff ratio,Engine builder etc,it,s not rocket science as you say Zef.Say two wins for anyone and it,s then that the head comes off.There are quite a few cars at the moment that regularly do exactly this,lets say this happens twice in a row,then its head off time,plain and simple.I do not accept that this is just driver ability,lets face it we all know who these drivers are!!

[Peter Mallett]

Got to disagree re the cut off point Zef.

Likewise eligibility covers a vast range thus to cope with the amount of work you need time and money.

[zefarelly]

well te pre66 thing is a personal opinion, largely born from experiences, its never going to be a finite cut off point.

but eligibility scrutineering is a must if you want a respected race series. and if it is respected it'll get entries

£10 on a race entry for the knowledge that people are trying to eliminate blatant cheating is a bargain in the grand sceme of things, then you can pay a scrutineer to be there to make spot checks if no volunteers are forthcoming!

[terence]

I have to agree Zef,There has to be a cut off date somewhere after all,maybe 66 is a little early,perhaps [in the caes of saloons]1970----- you would then start getting the likes of Escort Twink,s,now we all know they ruled the roost in their time.There would then be another problem,everyone would want one like most in sports cars want a Cobra which was quite obvious from last weekend!.Personally I would like to see a limit on cylinder numbers,6 would be good for instance.

The V8s could always have their own series,there are enough of them!

[terence]

As for conforming,every time I,ve presented my car at the "RING",If you dont show you,r papers they dont let you race,nothing wrong with that in my view.I think this approach should be applied to ALL "Historic" Events.Catch the cheats early enough ,explain that the car must conform,if they dont like it------- .

[zefarelly]

agreed totally . . . . V8's are the problem . . . especially when they're 'new' not period . . .coupled with all the braking and handling developements which seem to be 'acceptable' at the moment . . . .

personally I think the septics should stay their side of the 'pond' . . . that includes their cars,engines, beer, food and attitude ( pronounced at-i-tood)

at the very least on invitation on their own series . . . .

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

scrutineering should be for eligibility ( series organisers responibility) and safety (MSA) papers must be presented, cheats must be excluded, full stop! Assuming an organiser wants to eliminate cheats then he will acquire the knowledge, or knowledgable representative to inform of non conformance etc, its not rocket science, and I don't believe it needs engines being strippped down in the paddock.

Originally Posted by zefarelly

agreed totally . . . . V8's are the problem . . . especially when they're 'new' not period . . .coupled with all the braking and handling developements which seem to be 'acceptable' at the moment . . . .personally I think the septics should stay their side of the 'pond' . . . that includes their cars,engines, beer, food and attitude

If I wasn't already married.....

[John Turner]

I find myself in total agreement with Peter Mallett's approach to this, although there are a couple of big historic meets that would fall outside the circus, like the Donington See Red and Oulton Gold Cup meetings, and others of John R's view if only 2 in the UK prevails, but I guess, like Goodwood, they can stand alone. And although I consider that there were too many races at the Classic, I wouldn't want to see any reduction in the number of HSCC events held each year.

This talk about cut off dates worries me, too. Racing didn't stop at 1965, or 1966, or 1970, or whatever date you choose. History, is continuously evolving since it is linked to all events in the past. Last year's F1 season is history now. So was the Group C racing at the Classic, not part of the historic scene? What about new SRO GT90's Revival, which I hope will get off the ground? Even if they are attached to modern events, they still represent a period of past racing. Ergo they are Historic racing.

I think that you are confusing issues over cut off dates. By all means have cut off dates for individual classes of cars, or races even, but there should be no hard and fast rules about where historic racing ends and contemporary racing starts, since 'contemporary' is 'now', and using any of the sugggested cut off dates, leaves a potentially yawning gap of anything up to 40 years of racing cars left out in the cold, and confined to mixing it with all sorts in club racing, if they are lucky.

Select the periods which you wish to cover in your race series; apply the appropriate regulations, enforce and police them rigorously, but please don't attempt to draw any date line on what constitutes historic racing.

And as for excluding V8s; you jest surely? So the invasion of Galaxies, Falcons, Mustangs, Cobras etc of the early to mid 60's didn't happen then? I know that most of you guys are competitors, have your legitimate concerns and are focused on your particular areas of interest. Fine, but don't forget spectators like me, unless, of course, you really are so narrowly focused that you don't care whether anyone watches you and are happy to have the circuits to yourselves!

[Peter Horsman]

And no Ferrari V12s.

Oh dear.

[terence]

The point is John is that the way Historic racing is going at pressent[as seen at The Classic,]the smaller engined class,s are getting swamped by the Cobras etc.I,m not for one moment suggesting that these cars be banned,it can be a lot of fun when we,re all out together!.All I would like to see is a series for non V8 engined cars[there are enough of us] .As it is the best we smaller engined drivers can hope for is a class win,it is a very nice feeling to see the flag first!.With a smaller capacity field,I,m pretty sure there would be some pretty entertaing races,drivers would have that added incentive.I,m fully aware of the fact that the big yank,s etc started winning back in the early sixtys and the same happened then as is happening now,every grid was half filled with V8s because drivers/owners saw that they would not make the news by running in the smaller class,s. As for driving V8s,well,what can I say,HUGE amount of fun,the shear grunt etc,yes I,m all for them, but I,m concerned that with current trends ,every car out there will be V8 V12 powered,just think of what the "Green,s" would do to us then.

[zefarelly]

with reference to pre66 I only hold ground in as much as its a recognised date and everything before it fills a venue for a weekend, as you say John the date is continually moving, I guess we're up to mid late 80's now, although thats a very different 'period' to 60's racing, I thought group C racers looked horribly out of place at Brands in MAy, they're too new up against 50's and 60's cars.

in period we had large and small capacity saloon series, and we're heading that way now, U2TC, Top Hat for example . . . . the problem is theres lots of smaller capacity cars not racing at all, .this is specifically saloons

from reading early/mid 60's motorsorts over the weekend tank engines wheren't popular in the 60's either with some people, but they have a place, just not my cup of tea, either way they shouldn't be allowed at the expense of others, why ban genuine period British sports racers from racing in England so you can let in a few new cobras ?

[terence]

Thats my view exactly Zef. Will the smaller class,s disapear over time?I can,t imagion that they will but certainly the grids look to be filling with V8s.

[esper]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Thats my view exactly Zef. Will the smaller class,s disapear over time?I can,t imagion that they will but certainly the grids look to be filling with V8s.

problem a v8 is way cheaper then a propper prepped legal small engine. and a v8 can be the best camouflage for a moderate driver trying to win. time for new series? "the little masters"

[terence]

Why not? It could be made to work In all seriousness,I,m quite sure that ,as Zef Said,if there were such a thing,it would encourage more smaller engined cars out. So there!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I,m not for one moment suggesting that these cars be banned,it can be a lot of fun when we,re all out together!.All I would like to see is a series for non V8 engined cars[there are enough of us].

Ok, point taken, but then are there enough V8 cars to have their own race or are you advocating an additional race series for the smaller saloon classes? We do still see Lotus Cortinas and BMWs getting amongst the Mustangs at some of the circuits, though. Of course, although it has its detractors, in the sports car/GT fields, Goodwood actually has a separate race for the smaller engined cars as opposed to the TT where the cars are predominately big engined.

Zef, are you suggesting that we should have separate meetings for different periods of history? Not a bad idea, but coupled with Terence's desire for separate races for smaller classes, that would surely lead to more historic racing when the consensus (I think) is that we have too many already.

As for Cobras; what cars are being left out by their inclusion? Sports racers are surely a separate breed from the GT/sports cars? At the Classic, there were plenty of competitive E-types, and they came 1st, 3rd, 5th, against the Cobras 2nd, 4th, 6th & 7th. I don't see much difference between E-types and Cobras in that sense. Power is well up on both models. There are far more competitive E-types now than there were in period, and you only have to look at the Goodwood TT Revival to see that history is not repeating itself. Ferrari GTO's, the cars to beat in period are nowhere, and too valuable to race much elsewhere. The 330 LMBs and Aston Project cars are quicker than the GTOs now but they were always rare. On the other hand, we did see 3 Corvettes out at the Classic, so I'm not clear what cars we are losing at the hands of the Cobras, unless we are really back to this small car/large car discussion.

Incidentally, I think that the reason that V8s weren't universally popular when they came over was because they started beating our beloved and classic Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 saloons, but the fact is that, as in everything else, motor racing moves on, and if it wasn't the American V8s, it was the Lotus Cortinas, but then, of course, they were British, so that was alright, then!

[terence]

My own personal veiw John,is that there is still room for the smaller class catagories to have thier own series.After all ,most classic racing derived from these class,s.I know that everything moves on but I do feel that the big engined stuff is starting to take over,the Classic for instance,why could the somewhat out of place Porsches been replaced with a race purely for a smaller engined race?A combined Sports/Saloon race would have been good for spectators.Something that most would have possibly been able to say"I had one of those".Other than,"Iwould have liked one ,but could never afford one!"

[Peter Mallett]

1963 Jack Sears in the Galaxie. All through the 60s we got Falcons followed by Mustangs, then later we had the Camaro. All good V8 engines, low stress, high speed and winners.

The RAC took the step to reduce capacity for the Group 1 Championship in (I believe) 1977 thus outlawing all those cars. The reason was that they were larger than the capacity of cars then available in the UK.

But internationally those cars were still racing and our events need to reflect history as was, not how we'd like it.

The point is well made that if the period mods are held then the Cortinas, Escorts, Minis etc. would still have a chance because the big cars wouldn't be able to compete under braking for a start.

So this proposed "circus" could have 2 events in the UK (or even alternate with Brands/Silverstone/Donington), then a trip round Europe, avoiding clashes with Goodwood and the Oulton Gold Cup, which attract overseas drivers anyway.

Events for Saloons pre 1960, Pre 65, and 70's.

Formula 1/F5000,

GTs and Sports racers pre 55, pre 66 and pre 70.

Sportscars pre 55 and pre 66.

Formula Junior, Formula Three (1000cc)

BTW, Zef in keeping with my feelings re engine size I do have a problem with U2TC because it panders (for want of a better word) with an unrealistic history, as enjoyable as it may be.

[Peter Horsman]

Goodwood smaller engined-car race seems to be for up to 2.5 litres this year. Not that small then!!

In defence of the smaller car, my 17 (1220cc) has whipped around the historic GP circuit in under 2.07, and I think that a Lola Mk 1 (also with 1220cc) did an early 2.07 this year. We often battle with the leading Cobras, and it need a well-driven one to pull away. Whizzo can do it.

But we do have problems with the MInshaw E type, even on 6 cylinders. And the Jenkinson E Type won this years GD race at the Classic?

I suspect that American 8 cylinders can be a cheaper way of going quickly which I why they are gaining in popularity.

[terence]

E-Type--One reason our racing need,s better/strict policing. Also in response to Peters suggestions,I thought the RAC originally decided that they wanted more of a british field,hence the changes.But I still don,t see a seventys cut off happening just yet.I know it,s happened in Historic Rallying,but that,s an entirly different matter.It obviously is getting closer though bearing in mind the Post Historic series.

[Peter Mallett]

Well the FIA cut off is 1976 isn't it?

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Horsman

Goodwood smaller engined-car race seems to be for up to 2.5 litres this year. Not that small then!!

In defence of the smaller car, my 17 (1220cc) has whipped around the historic GP circuit in under 2.07, and I think that a Lola Mk 1 (also with 1220cc) did an early 2.07 this year. We often battle with the leading Cobras, and it need a well-driven one to pull away. Whizzo can do it.

But we do have problems with the MInshaw E type, even on 6 cylinders. And the Jenkinson E Type won this years GD race at the Classic?

I suspect that American 8 cylinders can be a cheaper way of going quickly which I why they are gaining in popularity.

Since when has an E-Type been quicker than a Cobra??

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well the FIA cut off is 1976 isn't it?

Absolutly correct,But for the moment the FIA dont seem to be having any thoughts about bringing this age group into FIA racing,one reason for the Eau Rouge Trophy combined into the 6hr.There are many people who are in the same situation Peter,perhaps a case of being patcient for a little longer ??
Something else to consider is where would all of these cars fit if allowed on one grid,and would that mean that 50s/60s car,s would just crawl away and hide in museums?

[Peter Horsman]

Sorry, when I said 'we have problems with the Minshaw E Type', I meant it could beat us, not that it was dodgy. Just thought I'd make that clear!

E Types tend to handle a bit better than Cobras (at least nowadays (!)), and the Minshaw and Jenkinson E Types don't always beat Cobras.

[terence]

But to outdrag a Cobra in a straight line ,requires something special?