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Old 16 Jan 2018, 07:02 (Ref:3793046)   #5401
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
They go WAY off the mark also in the exit of the first chicane, sometimes all four wheels. That's the absolute worst besides those two above.
That piece of tarmac on the exit of the first chicane has been there since the chicanes came in, cars have been using that for years before other track changes. Same for the exit of the second chicane.
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 08:57 (Ref:3793054)   #5402
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
is the porsche powered rebellion oreca lmp1 rumor still alive? or has gibson definetively been confirmed at the end?
Nothing has been confirmed. The Porsche link was made by just one journalist/photographer who was present at the end of season party, but no other media source has openly made that link, so it seems somewhat tenuous. Bart has maintained throughout that their preference would be for a normally aspirated engine, so the Gibson engine does seem most likely. But, it does seem a little strange that there has been no announcement. There's the Zenvo link, so maybe that engine is further down the line than we realise. Who knows...
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 09:54 (Ref:3793066)   #5403
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Originally Posted by Bentley03 View Post
Nothing has been confirmed. The Porsche link was made by just one journalist/photographer who was present at the end of season party, but no other media source has openly made that link, so it seems somewhat tenuous. Bart has maintained throughout that their preference would be for a normally aspirated engine, so the Gibson engine does seem most likely. But, it does seem a little strange that there has been no announcement. There's the Zenvo link, so maybe that engine is further down the line than we realise. Who knows...
Or, thinking way outside the box (and at the risk of ridicule), run the cars with different engines.
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 11:30 (Ref:3793082)   #5404
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Originally Posted by tomerswayler View Post
The changes mentioned for the fuel flow and consumption should bring the Toyotas and Privateer very close together. The 2017 figures are from https://www.fia.com/file/58905/downl...token=eNkmOZrc

Let's see:
LMP1H 8MJ
2017 878kg___124,9MJ/lap fuel___80,2kg/h fuel___44,1kg/stint fuel
2018 878kg___124,9MJ/lap fuel___80,2kg/h fuel___35,2kg/stint fuel

LMP1
2017 833kg___157,2MJ/lap fuel___100,9kg/h fuel___53,0kg/stint fuel
2018 833kg___210,9MJ/lap fuel___110,0kg/h fuel___52,9kg/stint fuel


The LMP1H will see a drop in the average stint length as the fuel per stint decreases by 20%. A normal stint will be 10 or 11 laps instead of 13 laps, so LMP1H and LMP1 could be forced on the same stint lengths/strategy.

The LMP1 class gets 34% more fuel per lap and will have 9% more power. Is that a jump in power (and laptime) similar to what LMP2 did from 2016 to 2017? LMP2 improved the laptime from a 3:36 to a 3:25.

The best ByKolles did a 3:24 in 2017, the best LMP1H was 3:14.

Looks like it'll be a close competition!
There is one thing I'missed out completely - Energy per lap. The difference seems really high, this means a lot more dangerous coasting for hybrids.

Lets evaluate the difference including 8 MJ of hybrid energy:
Hybrid: 124,9 MJ burned with 43% efficiency = 53,7MJ + 8 MJ = ~62MJ/lap kinetic energy
Non-Hybrid: 210 * 0.43 = 90 MJ/lap kinetic energy

Non-hybrid will have 45% more kinetic energy to work with.

This is not normal to me, non-hybrids will be burning gas till the end of the straight with very late braking, hybrids will boost out of the corner faster but will be saving fuel at high speed.

This will most certainly make races interesting with multiple overtaking in one lap, but IMO this very dangerous, we have seen multiple collisions between LMP1 and LPM2 because of this fact, making non-hybrid even faster this will be even more dangerous for LMP1H.
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 15:16 (Ref:3793116)   #5405
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I do think that we're missing out on the possibility of Rebellion (or someone else) running the Judd V10, now that they're available again, and Rebellion used to be a Judd customer in both LMP1 and LMP2.

I also know that because of how fast the LMP2 cars got at Le Mans and with them still being air restricted (no lift and coast), there were concerns on top end between them and LMP1s. But in spite of that, there were few incidents (though the #9 Toyota at LM was an infamous one).

However, the LMP1 privateers are supposed to have more power, but I'm sure that if the ACO determine it to be a hazard, they can go back and make changes.
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Old 25 Jan 2018, 23:10 (Ref:3795136)   #5406
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McLaren CEO Zak Brown feels that common regulations for prototypes in IMSA and the WEC would be a logical step moving forward for teams, drivers and manufacturers.
“We’re involved in the new rules that the WEC are working on and collaborating with IMSA. We’re in those meetings,” Brown said.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/0...-interest.html
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Old 26 Jan 2018, 03:20 (Ref:3795185)   #5407
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
I do think that we're missing out on the possibility of Rebellion (or someone else) running the Judd V10, now that they're available again, and Rebellion used to be a Judd customer in both LMP1 and LMP2.

I also know that because of how fast the LMP2 cars got at Le Mans and with them still being air restricted (no lift and coast), there were concerns on top end between them and LMP1s. But in spite of that, there were few incidents (though the #9 Toyota at LM was an infamous one).

However, the LMP1 privateers are supposed to have more power, but I'm sure that if the ACO determine it to be a hazard, they can go back and make changes.
I thought the #9 was involved with a car exiting the pits. I don't even recall there being fault placed on either party. Basically the lift and coast effect was really blown out of proportion imo. I thought it would be worse than it was myself. If Toyota makes more gains then it will be even less this year. Then the new lmp1 private cars will have a lot more power than lmp2. That might be interesting vs Toyota's lifting.
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Old 27 Jan 2018, 11:36 (Ref:3795394)   #5408
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New LMP1 regs to be announced at LM. Seems like much clearer talk of a common top class across ACO/IMSA.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...elease-for-new
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Old 27 Jan 2018, 18:38 (Ref:3795471)   #5409
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From Racecar Engineering site, Gilles Simon interview (mostly about LMP1): "...If you look at the cost of the GT3 car, for example, it is quite high but that is not an issue because you have professional organisations that are racing this car every weekend, so it is an investment..."
I think it's quite clear that "imsAco" is inevitable.
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Old 7 Feb 2018, 16:21 (Ref:3799343)   #5410
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http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/b...type-platform/

I mean I understand why the ACO are listening to Brown and Doonan and whoever else in turn is wanting to lobby their wanted political direction, obviously the French are desperate to get people back into top category with OEM support. But when the desired ideology of those people they're listening is to have cheap performance balanced spec cars (made by other people) with masqueraded styling cues, they should just say "thanks for your input" but insist on having their own route... which I guess they -kind of- are, but -kind of- is still half giving up to lobbying. I don't want some mid-way -kind of- hybridization that's just there for show-off. Also the styling cues, same thing. There needs to be substance.

Of course it would be great to have common top LMP platform for LM, Sebring and Daytona, but it wasn't the ACO who ripped away that possibility in the first place... "people that like to travel" or whatever it was that mr Panoz said that one day when he sold his assets to Daytona Beach.

It would be pretty funny if come 2021-2023 the remaining privateer LMP1 cars, assuming not phased out, are more technologically versatile than the styling cue GTP-DPi 2.0s.

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Old 7 Feb 2018, 21:10 (Ref:3799394)   #5411
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
Of course it would be great to have common top LMP platform for LM, Sebring and Daytona, but it wasn't the ACO who ripped away that possibility in the first place... "people that like to travel" or whatever it was that mr Panoz said that one day when he sold his assets to Daytona Beach.
Where did you come up with this malarkey? Your revisionist history is once again 100% factually inaccurate.
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Old 7 Feb 2018, 23:12 (Ref:3799408)   #5412
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http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/b...type-platform/

I mean I understand why the ACO are listening to Brown and Doonan and whoever else in turn is wanting to lobby their wanted political direction, obviously the French are desperate to get people back into top category with OEM support. But when the desired ideology of those people they're listening is to have cheap performance balanced spec cars (made by other people) with masqueraded styling cues, they should just say "thanks for your input" but insist on having their own route... which I guess they -kind of- are, but -kind of- is still half giving up to lobbying. I don't want some mid-way -kind of- hybridization that's just there for show-off. Also the styling cues, same thing. There needs to be substance.

Of course it would be great to have common top LMP platform for LM, Sebring and Daytona, but it wasn't the ACO who ripped away that possibility in the first place... "people that like to travel" or whatever it was that mr Panoz said that one day when he sold his assets to Daytona Beach.

It would be pretty funny if come 2021-2023 the remaining privateer LMP1 cars, assuming not phased out, are more technologically versatile than the styling cue GTP-DPi 2.0s.
I challenge you to think long and hard about what it is that you truly enjoy about the LMP1 category. If no one had told you much about them, you wouldn't know a difference between a Mazda Prototype and a Porsche prototype. All of this confusion about "high tech" is really dragging the category down.

Look how well the GTE class works with no hybrids. Would it really bother you at all to see simplified cheaper LMP1s? It's the actual racing that gets us going isn't it? And thats all down to drivers, teams, strategy. Everything underneath is quite superficial, meaningless...
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Old 7 Feb 2018, 23:37 (Ref:3799412)   #5413
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I challenge you to think long and hard about what it is that you truly enjoy about the LMP1 category. If no one had told you much about them, you wouldn't know a difference between a Mazda Prototype and a Porsche prototype. All of this confusion about "high tech" is really dragging the category down.

Look how well the GTE class works with no hybrids. Would it really bother you at all to see simplified cheaper LMP1s? It's the actual racing that gets us going isn't it? And thats all down to drivers, teams, strategy. Everything underneath is quite superficial, meaningless...
I like the technology + non-spec, non-dumbed-down element of it. If you are interested in this sport you do know what the cars are underneath. And the difference between real OEM car and fake OEM car.

It would bother me. I don't care about "close racing", I mean sure it's nice if it's comes by but I want real racing. Which I don't consider GTE to be (anymore) except maybe for very minimal fraction left somewhere.

Anyway, the hybrids itself aren't that deal or no deal to me (and I mean that kind of progression is already kind of dying in face of electric vehicles), but that wasn't really the point... the point is that listening to lobbyist demands isn't the answer for organizer. These OEMs come and go anyway, there's always going to be people in your top category if it means winning the biggest race on Earth, it just depends who they are and which capacity each year.
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Old 7 Feb 2018, 23:37 (Ref:3799413)   #5414
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Originally Posted by Zak Brown
“I think if you look at IMSA, you’ve got a good starting point sitting here with 20 cars on the grid. It feels to me that that should be the starting point of the conversation.”
What a ridiculous quote that is. You have 20 LMP2 cars for the biggest race of the season (once). ACO gets 25 LMP2 cars (every year) for their big race without the manufacturer crap screwing over privateers. Only 10 of those were DPi. Heck if he's going to put it that way, Le Mans this year will see 35 prototypes while Daytona had 20.

If manufacturer cars dominate the top 10 in qualifying and the early part of the race again at Sebring like they did at Daytona I'm not seeing that 20 number being matched next year anyways, it makes no sense for top tier teams to cross the ocean just to be cannon fodder.

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Originally Posted by John Doonan
“I hope that everybody can come together in that kind of way because the actual execution of the racing programs is one thing but the way we market it and tell the story is the most important thing for this to continue to stay relevant.”
I'm dying. This is the kind of mindset that gets you the absolute worst sports car racing program on the planet for 5 years running.

Quote:
“Our colleagues in Japan are right in the middle of conversations with the FIA and ACO,” TRD President and General Manager David Wilson told Sportscar365.
Truly Earth shattering news from John Dagys that Toyota is involved in LMP1.

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Originally Posted by Articus View Post
I challenge you to think long and hard about what it is that you truly enjoy about the LMP1 category. If no one had told you much about them, you wouldn't know a difference between a Mazda Prototype and a Porsche prototype. All of this confusion about "high tech" is really dragging the category down.
I don't know about him, but what I like about LMP1 definitely isn't awful sub-par race cars that couldn't even beat a 15 year old Courage with a stock Chevy engine in the back in an endurance race if their life depended on it and look like they were designed for a lower class.

Getting rid of hybrids in endurance racing at this point would be as utterly asinine as when they forced out turbos for 3.5L F1 engines because those manufacturers were totally going to race in both championships. The technology matches the sport too well. Any kind of standardized hybrid system is just a joke though.

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Look how well the GTE class works with no hybrids.
Pretty terribly these days, actually.
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 09:49 (Ref:3799492)   #5415
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Look how well the GTE class works with no hybrids. Would it really bother you at all to see simplified cheaper LMP1s? It's the actual racing that gets us going isn't it? And thats all down to drivers, teams, strategy. Everything underneath is quite superficial, meaningless...
For some of us, it is not just about close racing. The relentless performance balancing to artificially equalise the players actually detracts from our enjoyment, because the car's the star, not the teams, drivers and strategists. It negates the advantage of a constructor who, put simply, does a better job within a given rule set. LMP1 is the only class where there is at least some freedom and diversity of solutions available to designers and constructors, where they have the opportunity to build a car which gives them an advantage, without seeing their work come to nothing, because of retrospective performance balancing.

Horses for courses, but for me, I would sacrifice watching close racing in heavily BOP'd classes/formulas/series for witnessing a dominant display from a car which is just better than the others in it's class, because the designers/constructor/engineers have done a better job.
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 10:54 (Ref:3799505)   #5416
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Originally Posted by Bentley03 View Post
For some of us, it is not just about close racing. The relentless performance balancing to artificially equalise the players actually detracts from our enjoyment, because the car's the star, not the teams, drivers and strategists. It negates the advantage of a constructor who, put simply, does a better job within a given rule set. LMP1 is the only class where there is at least some freedom and diversity of solutions available to designers and constructors, where they have the opportunity to build a car which gives them an advantage, without seeing their work come to nothing, because of retrospective performance balancing.

Horses for courses, but for me, I would sacrifice watching close racing in heavily BOP'd classes/formulas/series for witnessing a dominant display from a car which is just better than the others in it's class, because the designers/constructor/engineers have done a better job.
+1
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 13:05 (Ref:3799543)   #5417
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And that's how things used to be I'd argue. But nowadays everyone wants results, wants them fast, and they don't care how it comes about as long as they get the return on investment they want.

And even then, there's no guarantees on that.
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 13:12 (Ref:3799545)   #5418
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For some of us, it is not just about close racing. The relentless performance balancing to artificially equalise the players actually detracts from our enjoyment, because the car's the star, not the teams, drivers and strategists. It negates the advantage of a constructor who, put simply, does a better job within a given rule set. LMP1 is the only class where there is at least some freedom and diversity of solutions available to designers and constructors, where they have the opportunity to build a car which gives them an advantage, without seeing their work come to nothing, because of retrospective performance balancing.

Horses for courses, but for me, I would sacrifice watching close racing in heavily BOP'd classes/formulas/series for witnessing a dominant display from a car which is just better than the others in it's class, because the designers/constructor/engineers have done a better job.
+2

As for LMP2 and LMP3, although they haven't fallen senseless like GTE and DPi with round by round political performance balancing, they too are nevertheless victims of over standardization and "teams and drivers are the stars" lunacy. Add into that the "everyone's a winner" concept of pro-am.

LMP1 is the last haven for realness and (not fabricated) variety, with tech impact. I fear that will be taken away with GTP/DPi 2.0, at least for OEMs
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 15:02 (Ref:3799578)   #5419
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Listening to yesterdays MWM because of them discussing (previewing) the entry lists, Goodwin says you can re-homologate nonhybrid LMP1 car/bodywork for every single race if you want?
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 17:45 (Ref:3799636)   #5420
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Listening to yesterdays MWM because of them discussing (previewing) the entry lists, Goodwin says you can re-homologate nonhybrid LMP1 car/bodywork for every single race if you want?
Wasn't there a rule or at least talk about a new manufacturer entering being allowed to update their aero package until it was competitive with the established teams? Maybe they held onto that for the privateers.
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3799638)   #5421
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Wasn't there a rule or at least talk about a new manufacturer entering being allowed to update their aero package until it was competitive with the established teams? Maybe they held onto that for the privateers.
Or

Established Factory OEM - 1
Debuting Factory OEM - What you say
Privateers - Unlimited

?
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Old 8 Feb 2018, 22:16 (Ref:3799705)   #5422
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Or

Established Factory OEM - 1
Debuting Factory OEM - What you say
Privateers - Unlimited

?
Here are the technical regulations for hybrids: https://www.fia.com/file/65128/downl...token=CIQj3YIc
The limit of the number of aerokits per season is stated in Appendix M.
In the technical regulations for non-hybrids (https://www.fia.com/file/65126/downl...token=Fd_IoZGk) there is no Appendix M and I couldn't find another limitation of available aero kits.
So it seems exactly like you said
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Old 9 Feb 2018, 02:28 (Ref:3799751)   #5423
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Articus should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridArticus should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridArticus should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think there is still a massive elephant in the room. Some manufacturers want Hybrids, other manufacturers do not want hybrids.

Also will this GTP style LMP cannibalize the GTE class (in favor of GT3)? Mclaren haven't developed a 720S GTE, because they have interest in LMP1 now.

Ferrari, Aston, BMW, Porsche!. Who wouldn't try to build a "GTP" style LMP in a much more cost effective top class? Sounds like it comes at the expense of GTE.
Will that category go away in favor of GT3?
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Old 9 Feb 2018, 12:37 (Ref:3799857)   #5424
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Originally Posted by Articus View Post
I think there is still a massive elephant in the room. Some manufacturers want Hybrids, other manufacturers do not want hybrids.
Well, the upcoming WEC season should be very educational about coming up with possible ways to address that.
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Old 10 Feb 2018, 13:36 (Ref:3800274)   #5425
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Also will this GTP style LMP cannibalize the GTE class (in favor of GT3)? Mclaren haven't developed a 720S GTE, because they have interest in LMP1 now.
GTE will still be much cheaper (well unless they go full in DPi route which would be absolute nightmare) and GT3 is still illegal from 24 hours, so they're not going to disappear suddenly
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