2018 VASC Silly Season (with POLL)

[Umai Naa]

It will be a cost-cutting measure for the teams that do their own engine work.

So PRA, DJRTP and WR, for example.

[Umai Naa]

Perhaps the SvG chat belongs in the SvG thread?


Oh wait, it was locked because emotions got in the way of intelligence...

[Compromised]

I remember talking to Mr Noonan about current speedway engines and the conversation ended up "what if the sprint car motor was the supercar motor?". His words - "cheaper, lighter, more horsepower".

But, and it's a big but, would manufacturers be happy running chevs? Or would fans enjoy a manufacturerless series?

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by Compromised

I remember talking to Mr Noonan about current speedway engines and the conversation ended up "what if the sprint car motor was the supercar motor?". His words - "cheaper, lighter, more horsepower".

But, and it's a big but, would manufacturers be happy running chevs? Or would fans enjoy a manufacturerless series?

What would it matter? The engines in the race cars now are nothing like what you can buy in the road version - pushrod vs OHC, cast iron block vs alloy etc. So the engine in the race car being relevant to the road car version is irrelevant, and has been for a long time.

The "cheaper" part of "cheaper, lighter, and more horsepower" is what the new rules are supposed to be about, so why are they not going that way? The current car was supposed to have been cheaper to build than the previous one, and repair, but it turns out it's a fair bit more costly. Will the next generation be even more expensive?

The people that support "Holden", "Ford", "Nissan", etc because "I've always been a Holden man" is completely outdated - the race cars have nothing in common with the road cars except the lights and bonnet badge. I laughed at a guy at work 2 year ago when he proudly announced to us that on the weekend he'd bought a brand new Commodore SS because it'd won Bathurst the weekend prior.

[GTRMagic]

You mean a speedway engine that operates without a clutch, that runs its accelerator as the handling device, one that doesnt have the stresses & strains of changing up & down a gearbox, and the stresses & loads that brings, plus the need for linearity of power delivery to pull smoothly out of corners without wheelspin? Plus the need to last 1,000km, and maintain a working temperature all day, from safety car slowness, to stop & start on a starter motor at pitstops...

Interesting concept..

[Mixer]

Properly quick 372 is six figures without breaking a sweat anyway so it isn't like bulk savings are to be had running methanol, and it beings it's own caveats too.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Umai Naa]

Sprintcar motors are designed around working under very different circumstances.

They're cheaper, because there's a much larger market for them. However, they are not the answer for Supercars.

[Ospi]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

It will be a cost-cutting measure for the teams that do their own engine work.

So PRA, DJRTP and WR, for example.

If it was a genuine cost-cutting exercise which benefited those teams they wouldn't be actively pursuing ways to ensure they can keep the development in house though. I know that the only teams happy with the restricted supplier direction the series seems to be heading are the people doing the development, wonder why..

The others then get forced to purchase engines with exuberant profits thrown on top, money potentially going to the competition, not to mention the ongoing costs of paying someone for rebuilds and track support.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Ospi

If it was a genuine cost-cutting exercise which benefited those teams they wouldn't be actively pursuing ways to ensure they can keep the development in house though. I know that the only teams happy with the restricted supplier direction the series seems to be heading are the people doing the development, wonder why..

It IS a genuine cost-cutting measure for the sport - but well heeled teams will always seek to find an advantage by spending money.

Teams defending their self-interest will always be a drag on attempts to reduce overall costs of competition. Look at F1 for example. The bigger teams have literally pushed smaller teams to the wall, and Supercars is not that far off.

Originally Posted by Ospi

The others then get forced to purchase engines with exuberant profits thrown on top, money potentially going to the competition, not to mention the ongoing costs of paying someone for rebuilds and track support.

This is a completely unfounded accusation - if 888 is charging exhorbidant prices for its cars and parts, why does it seem to have a very healthy market for its cars and parts?

Regardless, if someone has an issue buying from 888, they can buy from DJRTP, or Nismo. So it will sort itself out either way.

[Ospi]

Originally Posted by Mixer

It IS a genuine cost-cutting measure for the sport - but well heeled teams will always seek to find an advantage by spending money.

Teams defending their self-interest will always be a drag on attempts to reduce overall costs of competition. Look at F1 for example. The bigger teams have literally pushed smaller teams to the wall, and Supercars is not that far off.



This is a completely unfounded accusation - if 888 is charging exhorbidant prices for its cars and parts, why does it seem to have a very healthy market for its cars and parts?

Regardless, if someone has an issue buying from 888, they can buy from DJRTP, or Nismo. So it will sort itself out either way.

Because everyone is expensive, it's how they make money. You're better off purchasing the package proven to be quick which is why t8 have been so popular to this point. There's also a lot of control parts they won the tender for leaving the others no choice. They're certainly not unfounded.

[Umai Naa]

Other teams, or companies could have submitted for tender their wares.

In many cases, Supercars themselves had to actively pursue suppliers for various things as nobody had come forward.

Triple Eight won the tender for the two variations of the control pedal box. That's it. They are, however, an approved supplier of various other control design components, such as the prop shaft, centre bearing components, clutch assembly, and dampers. Teams are able to purchase these items from other approved suppliers as well, such as Albins, GRM, Supashock, etc.

[Ospi]

Obviously others could have submitted any won, nine of that is the point, the point is it costs a lot of money to purchase items from other teams, including engines. It certainly costs more to purchase an engine from a supplier than to manufacture it yourself and in order to remain competitive with other manufacturers, the ongoing development costs will also be passed on when wishing to purchase latest spec parts. There's money to be saved in the initial development of the engine but the ongoing costs thereafter are higher, not lower for those wishing to remain competitive with up to date packages.

If the series had a single spec engine for everyone then yes costs would be lowered but as long as there's competition between manufactures then even with 3 engine packages in rotation, the costs associated with keeping up with the competition will be high, and they'll be passed down to those who run them, with some profit thrown on top.

That's not really my main concern though, it would be okay if that money was at least staying within the series but instead it looks ever more likely that all this knowledge, development and costs will be leaving our shores. Would be a real shame.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Ospi

Obviously others could have submitted any won, nine of that is the point, the point is it costs a lot of money to purchase items from other teams, including engines. It certainly costs more to purchase an engine from a supplier than to manufacture it yourself and in order to remain competitive with other manufacturers, the ongoing development costs will also be passed on when wishing to purchase latest spec parts. There's money to be saved in the initial development of the engine but the ongoing costs thereafter are higher, not lower for those wishing to remain competitive with up to date packages.

888, the most successful team in recent history, has always bought engines from KRE, so engines do not have to be in house.

There is obviously a large infrastructure built up around engine development inside teams and outside, and all of these people are going to naturally resist business being taken from them, and some indeed will have to seek alternative employment - but I am not sure the current situation is sustainable in any case.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by mceci1

Get lost, you seem to be one of the deadest idiots who sit on the lounge and does nothing, and has no idea. The others may be negative critics but at least they have knowledge. I can stand talking to people like that, people like yourself are just fustrating

Idiot I can accept, but deadest? How much more dead than simply dead does one have to be to become the deadest?

More dead than SVG's career if he had stayed with Betty?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by dsg

Idiot I can accept, but deadest? How much more dead than simply dead does one have to be to become the deadest?

More dead than SVG's career if he had stayed with Betty?

Now im confused with your use of dead.

Why would his career have been dead, Betty gave him a link to gt3 so that part of his career would ahev gone ahead.

Still would ahve been in supercars and things may have been differrent if he didnt leave

[Mixer]

Sorry that we're going over old ground with this but for me the change in ownership and brand was enough to trigger a release clause in the contract, but as we know, Ross Stone held onto the #9 REC and stayed on board specifically so that clause didn't get triggered.

So complying with a contract on pure technical terms like that with a driver never ends well.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Now im confused with your use of dead.

Why would his career have been dead, Betty gave him a link to gt3 so that part of his career would ahev gone ahead.

Still would ahve been in supercars and things may have been differrent if he didnt leave

The point about GT racing is valid but history shows the Erebus AMG supercar venture was a failure.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by dsg

The point about GT racing is valid but history shows the Erebus AMG supercar venture was a failure.

History shows that SVG left and then the Erebus AMG supercar venture was a failure

Maybe one helped cause the other

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

You mean a speedway engine that operates without a clutch, that runs its accelerator as the handling device, one that doesnt have the stresses & strains of changing up & down a gearbox, and the stresses & loads that brings, plus the need for linearity of power delivery to pull smoothly out of corners without wheelspin? Plus the need to last 1,000km, and maintain a working temperature all day, from safety car slowness, to stop & start on a starter motor at pitstops...

Interesting concept..

I have to clarify - I wasn't talking about running the actual sprint car engine, more how they "control" the engines if you will (probably worded it the wrong way). One engine that everyone uses with their own developments added. Still expensive, but I still do believe a control motor would end up being faster/cheaper/lighter.

Economies of scale would surely come into effect

[Sandgroper]

SVG is with REDBULL,

FINTO end thread

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Compromised

I have to clarify - I wasn't talking about running the actual sprint car engine, more how they "control" the engines if you will (probably worded it the wrong way). One engine that everyone uses with their own developments added. Still expensive, but I still do believe a control motor would end up being faster/cheaper/lighter.

Economies of scale would surely come into effect

The only thing that's controlled is the basic concept, and the displacement.

As far as I know.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The only thing that's controlled is the basic concept, and the displacement.

Exactly - and there are some engines around with a fair bit of unobtanium...

I doubt you could place these days with an engine under $70k and have heard when the superstars come out there are guys running around with $150k engines.

Like anything where there are not limits...

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Perhaps the SvG chat belongs in the SvG thread?


Oh wait, it was locked because emotions got in the way of intelligence...

Just like the Terrorists, these things can only continue if you give them oxygen. We've been over this plenty before, none of us know the contents of contracts that relate to the spat, people only believe what they want based on what one side have said and think it is gospel.

Time to move on.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Exactly - and there are some engines around with a fair bit of unobtanium...

I doubt you could place these days with an engine under $70k and have heard when the superstars come out there are guys running around with $150k engines.

Like anything where there are not limits...

Introduce a $1 engine swap rule.

[mceci1]

Originally Posted by peckstar

When is SVG going to make peace with people. Always seems to be others that have to do it

Well said Peckstar, why should people do that. It wont happen, I don't really care, a lot of Holden and Ford people are annoyed with how he went about 2012. Anyway enough of him.