[Team] New drama at RBR

[strider]

Joe Saward's story tells it all.

It's true that Brendon Hartley's race results have not been as good as Ricciardo's but interesting that his work in the F1 simulator has impressed the race team. Vergne was originally scheduled to do both series, but there were some date clashes that have presumably now come and gone. There are those in F3 who say say that his potential is greater than Ricciardo's.

[Super Hans]

I had Hartley pegged as the next antipodean superstar but it seems Ricciardo has overtaken him. A shame, but his results post BF3 simply haven't been as good as expected.

[duke_toaster]

The interesting thing is the role of Herr Doctor Helmut, who claimed he wanted Buemi instead of Webber for 2012. No-one is sure what exactly he's supposed to be doing, but it appears that his hand might be pulling some of the strings. Let's see what happens with the Webber and Vettel relationship ...

[mountainstar]

Well I warned 18 months ago about Hartley and I was proven right. Way too much, too soon and he could never get his inconsistency under control. If there was ever a driver that needed coaching this was one.

But he did get the gift of experience from Red Bull, so it's up to him to see where he takes it from here.

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by strider

Joe Saward's story tells it all.

If it is Marko who runs RBR then they are fooshed. Simple as that. You just have to look at the staff turnover of staff at RSM back in the day to know he is not a 'people' person.

[ralf fan]

Australian bias at RBR? Not possible.

[strider]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well I warned 18 months ago about Hartley and I was proven right. Way too much, too soon and he could never get his inconsistency under control. If there was ever a driver that needed coaching this was one.

Strange then that the F1 team found his work in the simulator so good and that in that role he has played a major part in developing next years's RB7.

Another shot in the foot by RBR.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by strider

Strange then that the F1 team found his work in the simulator so good and that in that role he has played a major part in developing next years's RB7.

Another shot in the foot by RBR.

Oh I'm well aware of that comment, but there is a difference in testing on a simulator and actually racing. There is pure track speed and then there is racecraft.

F1 is so cutthroat that if you wallow around with inconsistency as he has the whole time you have been in Europe, when someone else is footing a seven figure bill every year, you eventually get the axe. Of course the way around this is what a lot of guys do with having their dad's friends oil company or real estate company or whatever foot the bill. But if you are a guy like Hartley on RB's dime, you should be clobbering people in F3 and WSR left and right. He isn't so he's gone to the red bull driver development scrapheap and the latest flavor of the month is in.

Helmut Marko, no question is a terrible manager of talent. I think 20 years ago he had the right idea but now he is so full of himself, it's pointless. He has wasted huge sums of money on drivers that never should have been touched with a 10 ft pole and of the good ones did a terrible job managing their talent. He should have gotten the sack years ago.

For Hartley though it's not a waste. He got quite a bit of racing paid for and at least a head start. I'm sure he will turn up somewhere and it will be up to him what he makes of it. If anything they may have done him a favor. We'll see.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Australian bias at RBR? Not possible.

Possibly just overcompensating.

[promax]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well I warned 18 months ago about Hartley and I was proven right. Way too much, too soon and he could never get his inconsistency under control. If there was ever a driver that needed coaching this was one.

But he did get the gift of experience from Red Bull, so it's up to him to see where he takes it from here.

you make him sound like he was a spoilt little brat lol

having met his father before.. and seen both Brendon and his brother Nelson progess through the classes.. it's a bloody shame to see Brendon dropped. hopefully this isn't the end of his F1 dream.

[karimbo]

Jean-Eric Vergne will be in Formula 1 long before Hartley or Ricciardo. He is younger, just like Alguersuari, but is faster than Hartley and Ricciardo and doesn't make many mistakes.

Aleshin was sponsored by Red Bull for 3-4 years and was dropped at the biginning of this year. He now leads the championship. Good for him, and good for Helmut Marko.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by promax

you make him sound like he was a spoilt little brat lol

having met his father before.. and seen both Brendon and his brother Nelson progess through the classes.. it's a bloody shame to see Brendon dropped. hopefully this isn't the end of his F1 dream.

No, I think it's a common problem with the F1 treadmill, especially with so many junior formula out there now, to run drivers through series before their time and a chance to develop, grow and learn. I remember there was a push to get him into an F1 race drive last year and I was like what? he'll get hammered.

While there are always some turds that sneak through to F1, there is quite a bit of talent that gets ground up way to quickly due to circumstance.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Whilst it's never nice to see a chap lose his job I can't really see that it's any surprise. He's had the best of everything, cars and teams and since FR Eurocup just hasn't delivered the goods and has been overshadowed by a faster team-mate.

I think if Dad's paying you can get away with it like a number of his rivals but when you're in effect an employee it's deliver the goods or else. Seems fair to me.

So the simulator guys like him? So what? It's not as if that's an irreplaceable skill is it?

If he's got it in him I'm sure he'll be back.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Oh I'm well aware of that comment, but there is a difference in testing on a simulator and actually racing. There is pure track speed and then there is racecraft.

F1 is so cutthroat that if you wallow around with inconsistency as he has the whole time you have been in Europe, when someone else is footing a seven figure bill every year, you eventually get the axe. Of course the way around this is what a lot of guys do with having their dad's friends oil company or real estate company or whatever foot the bill. But if you are a guy like Hartley on RB's dime, you should be clobbering people in F3 and WSR left and right. He isn't so he's gone to the red bull driver development scrapheap and the latest flavor of the month is in.

Helmut Marko, no question is a terrible manager of talent. I think 20 years ago he had the right idea but now he is so full of himself, it's pointless. He has wasted huge sums of money on drivers that never should have been touched with a 10 ft pole and of the good ones did a terrible job managing their talent. He should have gotten the sack years ago.

For Hartley though it's not a waste. He got quite a bit of racing paid for and at least a head start. I'm sure he will turn up somewhere and it will be up to him what he makes of it. If anything they may have done him a favor. We'll see.

I think he'd be a dynamite touring car driver.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

I think he'd be a dynamite touring car driver.

You never know if Audi or Mercedes would look at him for the DTM, that's an option no driver could be ashamed of. Being in that factory environment might be good and certainly his management should knock on that door.

With V8 Supercars, I really don't see any of the teams giving him a serious chance unless he verbally gave up his european dream and committed to V8SC completely.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

You never know if Audi or Mercedes would look at him for the DTM, that's an option no driver could be ashamed of. Being in that factory environment might be good and certainly his management should knock on that door.

With V8 Supercars, I really don't see any of the teams giving him a serious chance unless he verbally gave up his european dream and committed to V8SC completely.

I dont think you could say V8SC is something a guy with his heart set on racing at the top level would be keen on. At best it would be a stop gap. It hardly compares in profile to the DTM, WTCC, or even the BTCC. V8SC is more like NASCAR these days. Even though Aus is my home, and I love it, I am the first to admit its 'a bit far out of town'! No one is ever going to go 'all the way' in motor racing based here.

Out of interest did Hartley drop RB Juniors or vice versa? He would not be the first to become dissolusioned with the RB programme. Klien after all got over it when they dropped him from the F1 team and wanted to send him Stateside to do the US open wheeler thing.

[speedreader]

It is a dog eat dog world at the level Hartley was at but I didnt think he was doing that bad. He has won races, 'usually' qualifies within one or two sports of Riciardo, 'usually' races within one or two sports of Riciardo and suffered a number of mechanical failures as well as the odd bad qualifying & odd shunt but all in all, I would not have considered him a failure...

Here's hoping another team sees the worth in all the years of Red Bull Junior Team grooming & takes him under their wing to nurture him into a future champion.

As for Helmut Marko - in any team sport you need to cultivate & protect the team environment to get the best out of everyone. If RBR do not win the F1 Drivers Championship AND the F1 Manufacturers Championship titles this year then Marko can take 100% of the blame. He is single handedly splitting the team into fragments, because of his own stupid egotistical bias toward Vettel, instead of smoothing the waters & helping everyone to work together for the betterment of the team - the sooner RBR put him out to pasture & get on with rebuilding their team the better !!!

[Armco Bender]

Hartleys position really shows the problem with F1 that there are only 20 seats avialable and about 2 million aspiring drivers who want one of the golden tickets.
With most drivers F1 drivers being teenagers theres a long waiting period for one to retire and little hope of attaining a seat due to injuries,and with no test driving theres very little chance of ever getting behind the wheel of an actual F1 car.(other than a genetic accident of birth that your father owns an small country).
Hartley is blindingly fast driver that has the real deal stamped all over him,oh well may be Indycars is a better career path?.

[MrTTraces]

It is sad but the higher you get in motorsport the fewer the race seats.

Look at all the kids all over the world in fford, renaults, f3 etc... they all want to get to F1. Some have talent, some don't.. its cut throat and tough.

Hundred thousand drivers into 20 race seats doesn't work.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Hartleys position really shows the problem with F1 that there are only 20 seats avialable and about 2 million aspiring drivers who want one of the golden tickets.
With most drivers F1 drivers being teenagers theres a long waiting period for one to retire and little hope of attaining a seat due to injuries,and with no test driving theres very little chance of ever getting behind the wheel of an actual F1 car.(other than a genetic accident of birth that your father owns an small country).
Hartley is blindingly fast driver that has the real deal stamped all over him,oh well may be Indycars is a better career path?.

Maybe Dixon will give him a lift.

[Chappelli]

I think the tough thing for Hartley is that at the very least he's been matched by other drivers in pretty much everything he's raced going back to Formula Ford... In the last couple of years his results haven't exactly been massively impresive.

Quick, yes. Blindingly quick.. I'm not so sure.

On a results basis, if you had to drop Ricciardo or Hartley, I think recent results probably speak for themselves.

As far as Red Bull are concerned, if you're going to pumping significant money into the development of a driver and you start to feel he's not going to cut it (on any level...) and you drop him, it's your money, it's your call. But given that they're not doing too badly in the big game, I suspect there deselection criteria is more than "we don't like you anymore". From the 2011 car development perspective, I honestly believe that's a bit of a red herring. I'm not sure that a rookie is going to bring more to the team than a driver with signifcant experience and 'feel' for developing an F1 car.

[Armco Bender]

We also need to see these guys drive an F1 car,lots have people have won championships in lesser formulas and then flopped in F1.
Hartleys a bit raggety at times but I think he would impress if he got an F1 drive.
Pastor Maldonado is another whos going to be exciting in F1.