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Old 29 Jul 2010, 19:45 (Ref:2735406)   #26
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This is a rubbish analogy - the problem turkeys have is that they make an important enjoyable contribution to Christmas.
Ham is better.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 20:01 (Ref:2735419)   #27
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...
Tennis and golf have some events in the Middle East - definitely in Dubai, I know that. But the major tournaments are the traditional ones, because tradition is always more important to the fans. The Middle/Far East countries might be able to offer large prize funds but they can't compete with history
...
I dont know about the price pool for golf tournaments in the middle east, however, I do know that the golf ranking is based on who wins the most during a set period of time, I believe its 24 months. So if the middle eastern tournaments has the biggest purse then they are also some of the most significant tournaments on the tour
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 20:18 (Ref:2735431)   #28
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This is a rubbish analogy - the problem turkeys have is that they make an important enjoyable contribution to Christmas.
Traditionally it was goose.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 20:40 (Ref:2735442)   #29
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.....It's like Le Mans - it's not part of a championship (at the moment) but manufacturers still enter it and sponsors still sponsor
The manufacturers at Le Mans get invited in these days without pre-qualifying.

However, another try might be to reduce F1 to one driver per team only. Team strategies would become obsolete, as well as a rather high saving money effect. Of course, this would need an instance that takes care that not suddenly a manufacturer or team sponsors 3 or more cars.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 20:49 (Ref:2735451)   #30
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Unfair to geese

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Traditionally it was goose.
Also unfair to ham
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 21:03 (Ref:2735460)   #31
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Also unfair to ham
How can that be unfair to ham when goose was the tradition?
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 21:27 (Ref:2735477)   #32
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If there is no WDC there is no money for Bernie or CVC, they are out of a job and out of pocket....

In that case the events that would survive are those with tradition or great gobs of prize money......
There would be no mechanism to force teams to attend. They would only attend races important to them commercially or in a sporting sense.
You would be requiring teams to spend vast sums to compete but no way to enable them to raise the vast sums of money in sponsorship.
The only comeptitive teams would be the a handful of cars at the front and they would need to be supported by outside sources (outside of an F1 industry or commercial sponsorship).

So the result would be a fragmented 'Grand Prix' industry
A reduction in the breadth of competitive fields
A probable reduction in the number of significant grand prix events
A huge drop in the number of significant teams running in grand prix,
A drop in the number events with all the major players contributing
A 'poorer' motor racing industry in the UK
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 21:42 (Ref:2735486)   #33
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If there is no WDC there is no money for Bernie or CVC, they are out of a job and out of pocket....

In that case the events that would survive are those with tradition or great gobs of prize money......
There would be no mechanism to force teams to attend. They would only attend races important to them commercially or in a sporting sense.
You would be requiring teams to spend vast sums to compete but no way to enable them to raise the vast sums of money in sponsorship.
The only comeptitive teams would be the a handful of cars at the front and they would need to be supported by outside sources (outside of an F1 industry or commercial sponsorship).

So the result would be a fragmented 'Grand Prix' industry
A reduction in the breadth of competitive fields
A probable reduction in the number of significant grand prix events
A huge drop in the number of significant teams running in grand prix,
A drop in the number events with all the major players contributing
A 'poorer' motor racing industry in the UK
That would put alot of people out of work.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 23:05 (Ref:2735525)   #34
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Chatters should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridChatters should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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You mean fewer people would've heard of someone who has won the championship than those who would've heard of someone who never won the championship?

If that's the case, surely that proves the championship ultimately doesn't mean that much
It's wrong to compare Moss to Alonso in terms of popularity- Sir Stirling has had 40 years AFTER he was a GP driver to build a reputation, especially in England.

I could guarantee you more people would have heard of Fernando Alonso then say, Alex Yoong or Yuji Ide, or possibly even Jarno Trulli.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 08:54 (Ref:2735680)   #35
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2) Does Rafa Nadal not bother entering any tennis tournaments because there's no world tennis championship?
A tennis tournament is a sort of championship.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 09:30 (Ref:2735692)   #36
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If there are 30/40 races a season and teams can pick and choose which ones to enter than apart from the really big ones (i.e Monaco) you might well find teams avoiding each other to win races which would deprive us all of seeing the best race each other. The other alternative is a team like Ferrari dominating by entering every race and therefore getting a significant amount more track time than a team without the backing.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 09:30 (Ref:2735693)   #37
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2) Does Rafa Nadal not bother entering any tennis tournaments because there's no world tennis championship?
There is, it's called the ATP World Tour Finals.
Only the top 8 players in singles and doubles compete, and it's held at the end of the season.

For the women, it's called the WTA Tour Championship.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 09:52 (Ref:2735708)   #38
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I don't think we can compare other individual sports with F1 for two reasons.

First, tennis and cycling (golf might be here too, but I simply don't know) have events that last for several days with several hours od daily action for spectators. That alone isn't comparable to one hour qualifying and less than two hours of racing. It would be easier to compare Tour de France to one year of F1 - each stage/Grand Prix has a winner, and whole event (race or F1 championship) has a winner/champion based on his performances in all the races. Winners of single stages/races also get thei share of prize&glory, but ultimatey, it's the 'season' champion that counts.

Second - money. Not the prize money (in any form - actual prize money or various sponsorhips, entrance fees...), but money someone could and would invest. If we'd have Grand prixs without championship, we would like to think there would be more competitors, but it wouldn't. There would be less. Ferrari, McLaren and maybe some others would always have sponsors and enough money to develop cars and compete as they find apropriate. However, smaller teams will not be able compete ocassionaly 'coz they will simply not be able to find a sponsor to fund them to develop the car, and only show up occasionaly. Nowdays expenses of running an F1 car are far from what they used to be 50 years ago, and far from what gentleman-racer could fund out of his pocket (along with pockets of his friends).
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 10:40 (Ref:2735721)   #39
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In cycling the World Champion is in effect the winner of the Tour de France.

However there is also the one day official UCI "World Championship" often won by somebody who would be unlikely to win a "Grand Tour" in France, Italy or Spain so it doesn't really have the same kudos.

I can't see any alternative to what we have in in F1 personally but I would like to see the return of the odd "Trophy" events at the start or end of the season, maybe to try out new drivers as an alternative to testing.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 13:14 (Ref:2735782)   #40
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If there is no WDC there is no money for Bernie or CVC, they are out of a job and out of pocket....
Not necessarily. FOM can still "run" F1 even if there is no championship. Call it the "F1 Tour" or something. That there is no champion at the end shouldn't make a difference

I know it's an easy way to make the argument go away, but I'm sure it can be done. Other sports have proven this sort of system can work. However, whether the powers-that-be want it to happen is a completely different matter, as they have a vested interest in the status quo

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It's wrong to compare Moss to Alonso in terms of popularity- Sir Stirling has had 40 years AFTER he was a GP driver to build a reputation, especially in England.

I could guarantee you more people would have heard of Fernando Alonso then say, Alex Yoong or Yuji Ide, or possibly even Jarno Trulli.
I know, I was just pointing out the rather large flaw in E.B's point

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A tennis tournament is a sort of championship.
So's each individual Grand Prix, then. It's just shorter

Monaco's as important as the championship IMO, in the same way that the Indy 500 is as important, if not more important, than the IRL title. Same for the Daytona 500. I'm sure Monaco would have loads of extra entries the same as the other 2 if the FOM and FIA opened up the entry lists

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If there are 30/40 races a season and teams can pick and choose which ones to enter than apart from the really big ones (i.e Monaco) you might well find teams avoiding each other to win races which would deprive us all of seeing the best race each other. The other alternative is a team like Ferrari dominating by entering every race and therefore getting a significant amount more track time than a team without the backing.
Isn't that the same as tennis, though? Rafa Nadal and Roger Federer don't all enter the same tournaments, for obvious reasons. However, they enter a lot together, including all the major ones

Getting rid of the championship could be great for all the "Grand Slam" Grands Prix, because they would be the ones that all the top teams would enter

I'm sure there would also be a mechanism for making the top teams enter a set number of events with their nominated lead drivers - while there would be entries on a race-by-race basis, as opposed to at the start of the season as at present, they could do what they do in rallying and get the big teams to enter all the races (or a set number) before the start of the season. Not quite sure how they do it in rallying but it works

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There is, it's called the ATP World Tour Finals.
Only the top 8 players in singles and doubles compete, and it's held at the end of the season.

For the women, it's called the WTA Tour Championship.
Yeah but you can't say that Rafa Nadal's target each year is to win the ATP Finals, and that all the other big tournaments lead up to that - look who won it last year. Nadal's target is to win as many tournaments as possible, particularly the majors. Same for cycling - I'm sure Contador's years always build up to the Vuelta, Giro and Le Tour. I'm sure F1 drivers would take the same approach - win as many races as possible, especially the big ones
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 14:08 (Ref:2735798)   #41
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A tennis tournament is a sort of championship.
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So's each individual Grand Prix, then. It's just shorter
Not really, because I meant that they take a knock-out format with more than 1 match (match equating to race) and then there is an eventual 'champion'.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 14:19 (Ref:2735799)   #42
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Meh, that's just tennis in particular. The other 2 examples I've given, golf and cycling, are more like F1 because there is a continuous leaderboard for both

The point is winning the Monaco GP is akin to winning Wimbledon, the Masters (golf, I mean) or the Tour de France. It's one event in a season of lots of events, with some more important than others, where the goal is just to as well in the events as possible to earn prize money. F1 could be the same if those in charged wanted it to be, and it would be far more interesting (IMO) if it was

Funnily enough, it's the sort of thing Bernie could come up with. After all, he's already played the "winning races is what's important" card and tried to change the championship to that
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 16:16 (Ref:2735874)   #43
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Let's put it this way.

If we didn't have a championship, we'd still have the British, French, Belgian and so on Grands Prix.

We might still have the Abu Dhabi et al Grand Prix, but they would have to pay the teams a few bob to go there. Although they would not have to pay FOM a sanctioning fee.

NOW do you see why F1 has a championship?
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 17:18 (Ref:2735916)   #44
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Let's put it this way.

If we didn't have a championship, we'd still have the British, French, Belgian and so on Grands Prix.
These races would be dominated by a few drivers and teams and after a few years some bright spark will come along and say, 'Let's unify these races as a championship for drivers and makes.' and so it goes full circle.

Or alternatively the struggling Indy Car series is inundated with ex-F1 drivers and teams and expands, taking the place of F1.

However, neither is likely to happen.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 18:56 (Ref:2735979)   #45
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When I first saw the question, my immediate answer was that, yes, we do, but I've been thinking about it and now it's maybe not.

If you compare it to tennis, there is a ranking system and the #1 player at any one time gets major recognition.

Now in motorsport we have the Castrol Rankings, which serve a similar purpose, except that they are open to all motorsport competitors, not just those in F1.

Have a look here if you want to see how they stand at present.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 19:04 (Ref:2735987)   #46
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When I first saw the question, my immediate answer was that, yes, we do, but I've been thinking about it and now it's maybe not.

If you compare it to tennis, there is a ranking system and the #1 player at any one time gets major recognition.

Now in motorsport we have the Castrol Rankings, which serve a similar purpose, except that they are open to all motorsport competitors, not just those in F1.

Have a look here if you want to see how they stand at present.
I've been intrigued by the Castrol Rankings. How are points allocated?
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 20:15 (Ref:2736031)   #47
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It's quite complicated and I think weighted by category, but on that link I gave you on the right-hand side there's a link to How It Works. Someone's obviously put a lot of thought and effort into it. I know it's based on the previous 12 months at any one time.
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Old 30 Jul 2010, 20:21 (Ref:2736037)   #48
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Ok, thanks very much.
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Old 31 Jul 2010, 09:05 (Ref:2736240)   #49
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Castrol Rankings is a good start, although there are a number of issues. The nations ranking, for example, ought to take in to account more than just the top two drivers, possibly the top three or four.
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Old 31 Jul 2010, 11:16 (Ref:2736287)   #50
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The Castrol Rankings are just a marketing ploy. They don't mean anything. They don't even give out the exact formula for how they're worked out

It's along the lines of what I'd want but I want an exact points system for qualifying and finishing positions and the fastest lap as a bonus - bit like the NASCAR points system. And of course just for F1 races, not for every series going
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