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Old 18 Jan 2005, 14:14 (Ref:1203781)   #51
Mathias
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Mathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"Motorsport is dangerous for participants and spectators alike"

Nuff said. If you choose to spectate, you should take that on board. Couldn't there be safe places and places where you can actually watch the action at all venues?

Personally, I believe debris fencing is primarily designed to protect the interests of photographers with press passes.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 14:40 (Ref:1203816)   #52
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Hardly as they stand in front of the debris fence! It is specifically designed to protect spectators and spectator areas.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 16:03 (Ref:1203850)   #53
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Rob29 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridRob29 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Unfortunately there are no spectators in most enclosures to protect.When I first attended a race meeting,and for many years thereafter,there was atmosphere.Now you can see more by staying home and watching on TV. I last attended a meeting in 2002,am waiting for a Birmingham Superprix revival for my next.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 16:06 (Ref:1203856)   #54
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Maybe its about time for you to start a new trend and go to a race meeting rather than watch from home? You miss a lot of the atmosphere on TV.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 16:16 (Ref:1203862)   #55
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Mathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
My dear marshalling hero, that (your previous post, not the one immediately preceding this) is precisely my point. The press photographers get the unspoilt view of the racing, and can therefore take great pictures. We non-press amateur photographers have to content ourselves with pictures of chain-link fences, and so can never put a really good picture up on our walls, or, god help us, sell it to a magazine. So, the press photographers are the evil people who insist on debris fencing because it protects their interests.

There are some circuits that I prefer not to go to (including my local, the Buckinghamshire-based Northamptonshire circuit) because the debris fencing detracts SO MUCH from the enjoyment of the racing spectacle. Incidentally, once when I was at Silverstone (for it is it) I went right down to Stowe Corner, climbed up a bit of banking (behind the debris fencing, mark you) for a really good view of the cars flying down Hangar, and was told by the bleeming marshalls (a dedicated and highly respectable bunch of people without whom etc etc) politely to b****r off as it wasn't safe to be there. So, what's the point of debris fencing if it's not safe to stand behind it, hmmm? I tell you, the problem was that there was a risk I could get a good photograph, and that just would not do.

Last edited by Mathias; 18 Jan 2005 at 16:16.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 16:17 (Ref:1203863)   #56
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Mathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Stephen Green
Maybe its about time for you to start a new trend and go to a race meeting rather than watch from home? You miss a lot of the atmosphere on TV.
But you can actually see the race...
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 17:17 (Ref:1203912)   #57
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is there any chance of the likes of Lewis Hamilton, Alex Lloyd or Jamie Green doing it?
or Danny Watts.
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Old 18 Jan 2005, 17:19 (Ref:1203916)   #58
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I read an article quoting John Surtees the other day where he suggested the car would be driven by two or three drivers over the course of the season.
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 02:52 (Ref:1205247)   #59
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... and they are purportedly looking for one (or more?) young driver(s) who doesn't/don't (necessarily) have the budget, so they can give him/her a leg up the ladder. Which might rule out Hamilton and Green.

It certainly rules out my politically/grammatically correct stuff with all this confusing him/her, they/them nonsense!
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 09:11 (Ref:1205390)   #60
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... and they are purportedly looking for one (or more?) young driver(s) who doesn't/don't (necessarily) have the budget, so they can give him/her a leg up the ladder. Which might rule out Hamilton and Green.
Isn't the reason Green is doing DTM because he cannot afford to do GP2?
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 09:39 (Ref:1205419)   #61
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I have no idea. As he announced it in December, I would assusme that was a Mercedes decision - there was time to try and raise a budget between then and now if he wanted to try for GP2.

Whatever, I wouldn't have put him down as underfunded.
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Sit in a chair, lift your right leg off the ground, point your toes forward and draw CLOCKWISE circles in the air with your foot. Then raise your right hand and draw the number 6 in the air with your index finger. Your foot will change direction. If you can't even do this simple coordination task, how could you drive a racing car?
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 10:23 (Ref:1205456)   #62
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Re this debris-fencing chat which I appear to have sparked off.....!.....

It`s obviously required - in that respect I totally agree with Stephen (as I do on most things!).

BUT.

Instead of blanket-fencing everywhere one needs to apply a modicum of common-sense to the situation. For example, take Hawthorns. If it were actually possible to spectate around the outside of this corner you would clearly need debris-fencing there - it would be stupid not to have it. However, on the inside, spectators are perched high on a bank ON THE INSIDE of a fast right hand bend. Fencing here is not really necessary. I expect (though cannot prove) that over the whole existence of Brands` GP loop there has never been an incident through Hawthorns bend causing debris to leap up onto that spectator banking.

The same can be said of Druids ON THE INSIDE - fencing probably required on the way up on the inside. Fencing around the top and the exit - not really necessary.....

Care needs to be taken to not only make the venue meet FIA Grade 2 but also not to leave it permanently scarred for the spectators wanting to enjoy the other race meetings there. MSV need crowds and you can`t underestimate the fact that people ARE put off by the fences (not JUST the budding photographers). I genuinely think if Goodwood blanket-fenced it`s circuit then the Revival crowd numbers would severely reduce. Think about it - it`s part of it`s appeal.


Re a comment I posted here earlier about altering and "muting" the circuit - the news in MN and AS this week I feel has partly upheld my argument. I do hope this doesn`t ruin the GP loop. Prima-facie it`s not looking too bad. Not quite sure how they`re planning to do Hawthorns but the Westfield re-alignment would seem to be bringing it back to as it used to be (you can still see the old corner beyond the double-apex one that exists now).
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 10:58 (Ref:1205479)   #63
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Elio,

Have a look at MSV's wensite www.motorsportvision.co.uk as they have the outline plan of the changes at Hawthorn.

With reference the debris fence and in particular the fencing at Druids, there have been occasions when cars have been stopped from entering the spectator area certainly by the armco barrier. If a car can hit the barrier then it is quite feasible it could cross over the barrier as well!

I think the biggest prblem here is that we live in an age of litigation. The UK is rapidly becoming more like the USA with people entering law suits for the silliest of reasons. This in turn leads to more regulation as companies try to protect themselves from the huge cost of court battles.

Like you I would like to see less fencing in certain areas but I doubt it will happen. It is also worth pointing out that should a car manage to have an accident which resulted in the car entering a spectator area, it would do irrepairable damage to motorsport and harm the long term future of the circuit involved. Thereofre I feel we will have to accept the fencing and learn to live with it for our own safety.

There seems to me to be an increasing number of amateur photographers who take a small pair of step ladders with them to race meetings to overcome the problem you raise. Could this be the answer to your problem?
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 11:23 (Ref:1205491)   #64
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Stephen - I used them in 2003 during the Champ Car fencing episode. Don`t get me wrong, it`s do-able but it`s not very nice!!!! Would you rather marshall post 5 on a pair of kitchen steps or on terra-ferma!

Re MSV site - I read your earlier post but can`t find what you mean - only the fairly un-specific PR bit which I`ve now read numerous times but the only change is at the foot of it where it confirms season passes will be valid for A1GP.

Also, I still think my point is still being missed. If things are so dangerous out there then circuits like Lydden, Snetterton, Castle Combe SHOULD BE COMPLETELY RING-FENCED.

A circuit like Silverstone which holds F1 and Donington which hosts Moto GP should only be running these events if they use a semi-circular catch-fencing structure which comes up either side of the track and arches across to meet in the middle..... That is the only fail-safe way of retaining debris from an accident. Now everyone`s thinking - "Elio`s taking the proverbial and going OTT..." No, when you think about it he isn`t. Different areas have different levels of risk associated with them. F1 GPs are not run in the tunnel of steel I suggest because it is not practical. The incremental costs outweigh the incremental benefits. Taken down to Brands` level the same still applies. I suppose we have to agree to disagree!!

A good idea would probably be to have a designated area (s) at race tracks where punters can forego all kind of liability and enter at their own risk to simply spectate/photograph etc etc. This area would not be an inherently risky area, just one that over the decades has ALWAYS been regarded as safe but NOW under this US-style "A*se-covering" philosophy is NOW regarded as unsafe - despite 50-60 years worth of no incidents?
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 11:31 (Ref:1205498)   #65
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Isn't the reason Green is doing DTM because he cannot afford to do GP2?
No, it's because Mercedes want him to do DTM.
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 12:15 (Ref:1205533)   #66
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Originally Posted by Mr Jinxx
... and they are purportedly looking for one (or more?) young driver(s) who doesn't/don't (necessarily) have the budget, so they can give him/her a leg up the ladder. Which might rule out Hamilton and Green.
Robbie Kerr would be ideal...
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 12:39 (Ref:1205559)   #67
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Originally Posted by Elio

A good idea would probably be to have a designated area (s) at race tracks where punters can forego all kind of liability and enter at their own risk to simply spectate/photograph etc etc. This area would not be an inherently risky area, just one that over the decades has ALWAYS been regarded as safe but NOW under this US-style "A*se-covering" philosophy is NOW regarded as unsafe - despite 50-60 years worth of no incidents?
This works in America. At the Reno Air Races you have to sign an indemnity form before collecting your pit pass,so if you get in the way of the propeller
of a taxing plane-tough!
In the long term,I think the only solution is to only build cars that will not jump sensible fences. Otherwise they might as well ban spectators all together. Marshals could be replaced by coloured lights and robot cranes?
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 12:42 (Ref:1205561)   #68
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Hmmm, your car is on fire and you are slowly suffocating. Hold on, here comes a crane to put the fire out.

Yes, that will work
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 12:58 (Ref:1205574)   #69
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Rob29 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridRob29 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Interesting that the EuroBOSS series has decided to forgo any rounds in UK.Circuits only income is now from competitors. If this expensive series cannot afford the fees,what hope is there for cheaper ones?
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 13:05 (Ref:1205583)   #70
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And yet TGP is racing in the UK. I have to say Rob that of the two, TGP is the better package IMHO.
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 13:56 (Ref:1205620)   #71
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
BOSS only tended to get grids of about three cars anyway - it won't be missed.
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 14:01 (Ref:1205626)   #72
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Come on KB be fair, it was more like 10 cars, still not enough to encourage spectators I agree.
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 14:15 (Ref:1205648)   #73
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Sorry! I was exaggerating

But it's been around for about a decade and never seemed to improve.

And there was a round at Brands last year or 2003 that only started 5 cars.

I have a tendency to believe 16 cars should be the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for a race.
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Old 20 Jan 2005, 14:32 (Ref:1205674)   #74
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There are many, myself included, who would agree with you.

Last edited by Stephen Green; 20 Jan 2005 at 14:32.
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Old 22 Jan 2005, 22:10 (Ref:1207412)   #75
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THR has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
if the old circuits want the big races they have to update.
simple really innit?
safety is king these days. you cant do nothing without it.

brands is a lovely place. great track, but built in the wrong place (too far south for me) lol.

Rockingham (the twisty circuit) i feel would be a much better choice for the A1, its new, brilliant, and spectactors can see it all, all at once! would require no mods, and surely be cheaper.
im amazed no big races are run there, the potenial for the place is huge!!!
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