Group A BMW 635 CSi - a popular, solid performer

[Alex E]

Yes...

[John Turner]

Ok, so can we put even more flesh on this now, because I think that this is rapidly becoming a good subject for the Chassis Archive. Can we start linking chassis nos to names, subsequent histories, current whereabouts etc. There seems to be a lot of knowledge out there. If we can bring this together in a structured way, that would be brilliant. Anyone like to kick of with their known list (he said looking Alex's way!), or should we continue the way we are and do a bit of collation further on down the line?

[Alex E]

Oh dear, what have we started here.
I will have a look through my files & get you startede over the weekend.
Regarding the Unbeatable BMW books, Jeremy at the time did not have enough information to go into the history of individual cars. Unlike Porsches for instance, where you can buy a book that tells you every cars chassis number, colour, owner, etc,...with BMW`s it is just not like that. Maybe one day if we keep this up.

[glyn parham]

Hi everyone.

Nice to see my photos at racingsportscars linking up to this thread.

Going back a long way on this thread, Stucks' early pace at the 1984 Spa 24 hour was mentioned, but Jean-Pierre Jarier was even more spectacular and hurled his bimmer up to first place inside the first ninety minutes! The next morning there was a crazy dice between Weaver and Winkelhock which had me very confused. The gap between them kept fluctuating and only when I read the report and also asked James about it several years later did I understand why.

They had spent approximately an hour dicing and seemed to be flying off the circuit at every opportunity, but the dice provided enough evidence to Stuck and Questor that James could drive and deserved to be in the team. Winkelhock was a little bt peeved that the number 3 driver of the Scnitzer could easily keep up with him, not quite what he had expected.

The Ted Grace, Muir, Gartland partnership had started in 1970 IIRC with the Wiggins Teape Camaro and lasted until the untimely death of Yogi in 1982. And yes, that did include the Alpina CSL of 1973, has anyone got a good photo of that car at the British GP I wonder?

Does anyone remember the Bastos 635 in the advertising hoardings at Zolder in 1984 and Stefan Belloff rolling another one in practice (Zolder 1983 I think) because the quallies gripped too well!

Happy days.

Glyn

[Alex E]

I checked some info regarding the 635`s that raced in the UK.
Some time in the winter of `83-4 CC Racing got an ex Eggenburger car that was driven in the ETCC by Kelleners / Grano & they used that car in the BTCC in `84. Not sure on the Ch #.
Grace / Gartland received one new car in `83 (#17) for the BTCC
CC Racing also got two new cars for `84 (#37 and 39) both were supplied in white.
Grace racing got another new car in `84 (#46)
and BMW GB bought a new car (#62) in `85 that was delivered in red. Should be easy to identify that one.
Not sure how this will tally with Ians info from a completely different source ?

[KA]

That seems to fit with Ian's post pretty well-

#17- the original Sytner car from 1983
#46- the second Sytner car from 84- both going subsequently to John Morton in NZ

The 3 CC Motorsport/BMW GB cars-
one ex-Eggenberger (chassis no unknown), then sold to Sytner and subsequently Jumet in Belgium
2 new cars, #39 & #39- both sold to Sytner in 85, one then going to Mike Newman, the other to Australia for Charlie O'Brien

#62, the red car for BMW GB in 85 is a mystery though- as Chunterer said, the BMW GB team didn't appear after 84, so why would they have ordered a new 635 during 1985?- I suspect there's an interesting story behind that one...

[racer69]

Regarding Charlie O'Brien's ex-Sytner car that came to Australia:

This is from the book "BATHURST 1985/86";

"No. 22, the only righthand drive BMW in the field, was brought to Australia just before the running of the Castrol 500. Co-owned by former HDT driver Charlie O'Brien, and London-based Australian businessman/race patron Erle McRae, who were closely linked linked in O'Brien's Pacific open-wheeler days, this car was a Schnitzer replica campaigned for BMW GB in the 1984 British Saloon Car Championship and some rounds of the European Touring Car Championship by British touring car ace Frank Sytner.

Gold Coast based O'Brien had the car rebuilt for Australia by it;s usual British preparer, Ted Grace International, who lent the McRae/O'Brien team one of his British mechanics for Bathurst....."


The Castrol 500 at Sandown is held in September, which fits in with this quote earlier about the car coming to Australia after the '85 TT.

Originally Posted by KA

...and the second goes to Charlie O'Brien in Australia- presumably post-TT, but in time for Bathurst.

Also running at Bathurst in 1985 was an ex-Schnitzer 1984 car owned then (and now) by Simon Emmerling. He still races the car today, only it has a V8 engine in the front...............

[KA]

Funnily enough, I've just been looking at my copy of the same book...
7 635s competed at Bathurst in 1985- 3 were locally built by JPS Team BMW-
No.1 for Richards/Longhurst, described as the team's first Group A car, originally built for Bathurst 84
No.31 for Crichton/Fury- built for Crichton in late 84
No.20 Jim Keogh's ex-JPS car- originally a JPS team Group C car from 1982, rebuilt to Group A as the team's spare car for 85 before being sold to Glen Molloy and then Keogh
3 were ex-Schnitzer:
No.21-for Ravaglia/Cecotto- imported by Greg Siddle, described as the 2nd-place car from Spa 85. Also appeared at Bathurst in 86
No.23- Simon Emmerling's car, as described above by Racer69- Dieter Quester's 84-season car, acquired by Emmerling in early 85
No.3 Kent Baigent's NZ-based car- bought from Schnitzer in October 84, and I believe written off in NZ in late 85
and finally O'Brien's ex-CC Motorsport, ex-Sytner car. Bearing in mind that the TT was usually early September, then if it ran at the TT with Sytner, then they couldn't have wasted much time in re-preparing it and shipping it to Australia in time for Sandown later the same month...

Can anyone match this up to chassis numbers?- we know from Alex's info that the O'Brien car must have been either #37 or #39

[GTRMagic]

The top picture is Bathurst 1985, when this BMW was run by Charlie O'Brien and John English (no.. not the singer..)

The second picture is Charlie O'Brien again, at Honda Corner at the much loved Amaroo Park (now housing estates) in 1986....

If you notice closely, and I didnt till i looked at them just now, the top car is RHD, the bottom LHD....

Charlie O'Brien had access to a Bob Jane T Marts Schnitzer car in 1986, and an ex-JPS BMW 635Csi.... I wonder which of these this is....

[Alex E]

I have information that says #55 was destroyed in February `85. ( a strange month to be crashd in Europe.....!.) Are you sure it still exists?

[Alex E]

Hi Ian,
I agree with most of your ### but the RA001 is curious. The Kelleners / Grano Eggenburger car sold to the UK was built very early around the `prototype` era of the 635. This might explain a strange ch # & could be this car. #50 was originally sold to Brun. Also #75 was eith written off or used to replace one that was.
Lasty the Group N 635 that Barrie Williams drove went to NZ & is still there I think.
Alex

[David Towe]

RA2-44 was the 1985 Australian Touring Car Championship winning car of Jim Richards'. I recently sold the car in original trim to a guy who works in Hong Kong and will keep and race the car in Melbourne. The car was sold to Rogers and Keogh then to Joe Somariva the to John Hebron then to me and on to Adrian O'brien. I hope this clears up one of the chassis histories for you.

[Nivola]

Well here is a image of the emerling car as raced last weekend. I truely had a tear in my eye when he arrived with it a few years ago after the rebuild.

I think what killed me more was the Perkins chevy powerplant!



He still race as much as he can and makes a few people look pathetic even if he out for a sunday drive! LOL

[GTRMagic]

Its a Perkins Holden engine I thought, one of the early '90s powerplants left over after LP switched to Chevrolet

[Alex E]

I am still curious about the ch # 62 that was sold to BMW GB in red colour, I can only think this was because od a sponsor they had lined up. As when you ordered one of these cars / kits you could choose the colour. The Bastos / Juma cars were delivered in red, all of the JPS cars were delivered in black, etc....
Going back to the two pictures posted by GTRMagic the lower one is obviously a Schnitzer car. You can tell by the squared fuel tank box under the rear bumper, and the black roll cage.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Alex E

Going back to the two pictures posted by GTRMagic the lower one is obviously a Schnitzer car. You can tell by the squared fuel tank box under the rear bumper, and the black roll cage.

If the bottom pic is a Schnitzer car, as opposed to a JPS car, it is likely the 2nd placegetter from Bathurst 1985... the orange one

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alex E

I am still curious about the ch # 62 that was sold to BMW GB in red colour, I can only think this was because od a sponsor they had lined up. As when you ordered one of these cars / kits you could choose the colour. The Bastos / Juma cars were delivered in red, all of the JPS cars were delivered in black, etc.....

Yes Alex me too!

I've racked my brains a helluva lot about this no. 62 and it keeps taking me towards a possible news story pre '85 season. IIRC CC/BMW GB hadn't said they weren't going to do the series again until very late in the day?

Although I don't have the snippets to hand, MN particularly at the time was trying to get an angle on BMW GB's plans. There may have even been a story doing the rounds that Schnitzer were being asked by BMW GB to do the season or some guest rounds? I'm nowhere near sure on that though.

I agree with your thoughts about pre ordering a colour also. Could it be that the importer had lined up a new team/sponsor which subsequently fell through?

I suspect one of 3 things.

1/ BMW GB aquired an extra car with the thought of the CC deal continuing.

2/ This was a new planned effort which fell through.

3/ The Schnitzer invitation (BMW GB) car i referred to above?

Bet it's nothing as exciting as any of these though!!!

Someone will know, but will they be able to confirm it?!!

[ian beckett]

Going back to one of my earlier posts,I mentioned the letter that Dave Cook wrote to me and he makes no mention of a car which could have been chassis #62 and that letter was dated May 1987 and we were now in the M3 era. Coming on to the Simon Emmerling car im OZ,his then team manager Kerry Malone kindly wrote to me in '86and confirmed that their car was indeed chassis number34,ex-Schnitzer.Interestingly,one of the sponsors of the car back then was Polyplastics,Emmerlings company and unless I am mistaken that is the lettering on the side of the present day car? Alex's most recent post triggered something in my brain and looking through my file I found a request for help from a guy called Gerry Hodges who is the president of the New Zealand BMW club.He is the present owner of the ex-Barrie Williams Gp N car built by Ted Grace and delivered to Malcolm Gartlan Racing.He suggests the car is chassis number E24 RA2/46.He goes on to say he had heard the car was crashed in testing and was rebuilt in Group A spec'? He now runs the car in historic racing in New Zealand and from the two small pictures which accompany the article it certainly has the stance of a group A machine!He says he has a letter from BMW Motorsports confirming the chassis provenance.

[ian beckett]

Having re-read all the posts again a few minutes ago(it's sad I know!!) I saw a few comments about favourite memories of the car and mine has to be of Hans Stuck in practice at Donington for the '83 ETC meeting.I watched in awe as lap after lap he would approach Mcleans at unabated speed and launch the car over the kerbs causing the car to rise onto two and at the time I believed on occasions onto only the rear outside wheel before charging up the hill.He would gain yards on those around him and others tried but always failed to emulate his method. Great days because at the time Donington still had trees in parts coming right down to the edge of the barriers and sitting amongst the pines on a warm.sunny spring day it made me think of the Nurburgring!

[KA]

Originally Posted by ian beckett

I found a request for help from a guy called Gerry Hodges who is the president of the New Zealand BMW club.He is the present owner of the ex-Barrie Williams Gp N car built by Ted Grace and delivered to Malcolm Gartlan Racing.He suggests the car is chassis number E24 RA2/46.He goes on to say he had heard the car was crashed in testing and was rebuilt in Group A spec'? He now runs the car in historic racing in New Zealand and from the two small pictures which accompany the article it certainly has the stance of a group A machine!He says he has a letter from BMW Motorsports confirming the chassis provenance.

I'm not sure I want to suggest this, but if #46 was the Group N car, then does that mean there may be an additional ex-Sytner Group A car (ie the second car built in 84) we still haven't accounted for?- and could this give any clue as to the identity of the car raced by the South Africans at the 85 TT?

In other words, what did Frank sell to NZ- 2x Group A cars as we originally thought, a Group A and a Group N (since rebuilt to GpA in NZ), or two x Group A, one of which had been rebuilt from a Group N car?

[Steve Holmes]

Originally Posted by KA

I'm not sure I want to suggest this, but if #46 was the Group N car, then does that mean there may be an additional ex-Sytner Group A car (ie the second car built in 84) we still haven't accounted for?- and could this give any clue as to the identity of the car raced by the South Africans at the 85 TT?

In other words, what did Frank sell to NZ- 2x Group A cars as we originally thought, a Group A and a Group N (since rebuilt to GpA in NZ), or two x Group A, one of which had been rebuilt from a Group N car?

I have a photo of the Sytner/Morton car at Wellington in 1985. The car has 'Johnstone BMW' sponsorship down the side. Johnstone BMW are an Auckland (NZ) based BMW dealership. I also have a magazine article on a Group N BMW 635. In the article, the writer says the car was imported in 1985 by 'Johnson BMW'. I think this was a spelling error, and I think its supposed to read 'Johnstone BMW'.

Anyway, the article goes on to say the car is number 46 of 49 built by BMW in 1984, and that it went to Sytner. It also says its thought to be the only one of the batch built to Group N specs. It was apparently raced by Barry Williams, who crashed it heavily in testing, before it was rebuilt, and shipped to NZ in 1985. The Sytner Group A car first appeared at the January Wellington Street Race, so maybe they came out together.

The Group N car was never raced here, although that was the original intention. Instead, it was sold, and the new owner used it as a road car until 1997, when it was then rebuilt for the road racing endurance event Targa New Zealand.

[Alex E]

It seems possible that Stuck might be re-united with the Cheylesmore 635 for a race at Spa next month.
Best piece of film I saw of 635`s was Stuck at Spa 24 Hours early in the race going over the top of Eau Rouge on one wheel in the wet. 1984 or 85?

[John Turner]

All this info. emerging is fantastic and there is no doubt in my mind that we will be able collate this into a really good archive for these cars. Can I gently just urge caution about quoting chunks from books etc, due to copyright issues. However, a summary of the same information in your own words (quoting the source) overcomes that difficulty.

[Nivola]

Ian you are correct! Simon still owns Polyplastics and has made heaps of unusual stuff through that company for people. I think Kerry is still with him.

There is a story about Frank gardner and Jimmy Richards and Simon on a drive day. Lets say Jimmy went faster in this car then his own! If i remember correctly after every meeting the engine went back to Schnitzer to be rebuilt. That a long way from Western Australia.

Other people to race it are Trevor Hine and the one and only John Bowe. I miss the Wannaroo 300. (cavy we need it back!)

[Steve Holmes]

I kept tabs on the Kiwi 635s, which was quite easy at the time, because there weren't many of them. But this is going back 20 years now, and the memories have become fuzzy. I thought, for some reason, the Sytner car, co driven by John Morton in the '85 Wellington Street Race, and which nearly won the race, later went to either Charlie O'Brien, or Garry Rogers. But I could well be wrong about this. This car was lhd. Some still claim there was a mis-count in the number of laps, and that Sytner/Morton actually won the race. It has recently been restored, and was racing at a historic event earlier this year in its '85 Wellington Street Race livery.

Jim Richards co-drove with Morton in the '86 event, in a lhd car. I assume this is the Sytner/Morton '85 car?

I was at Manfeild in late '85/early '86 when Denny Hulme in Ray Smiths Commodore, and Kent Baigent in the 635 made contact, with Baigent barrel rolling along the corrugated fence on the back straight.

Trevor Crowe apparently had two Archibald owned, ex JPS 635s. I didn't learn this until recently, when Graham Dodd, the cars owner, told me. The car he has seems to have seen little action since Crowe drove it. David Towe will know more of this cars history.

What happened to the ex JPS Crichton car? Jim Boult races a JPS 635 in South Island historic events. Is this the same car?