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Old 26 Oct 2012, 04:40 (Ref:3157815)   #2526
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Originally Posted by Victor_RO View Post
Even that would annoy manufacturers, it's a similar idea to the Indycar bolt-on body kit idea, and that one (to put it mildly) has not even had a good start yet.
Still worlds apart!







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Old 26 Oct 2012, 07:00 (Ref:3157836)   #2527
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There are lots of things that could specced, like brakes, suspension, gearbox, ecu and rims and even rear wings. Leave chassis, engines and bodywork to the constructors, and a fairly cheap P car can be built. Especially with a cost cap on these things.

I think the P classes would do well with taking a page or two from F1 in this case.
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 10:42 (Ref:3157925)   #2528
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So LMP regulations...

The Big Honking Fin. At one point, the ACO were planning to make it smaller. What's happening on that front?
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 10:56 (Ref:3157933)   #2529
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 11:33 (Ref:3157943)   #2530
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So LMP regulations...

The Big Honking Fin. At one point, the ACO were planning to make it smaller. What's happening on that front?
Nothing. The ACO chickened out.

Once they introduced the concept to the world as a "safety enhancement", I don't believe they will ever have the balls to admit it's a crap idea and simply remove them as they will be seen to be liable the next time a proto takes off.

The holes and the fin are sodding ugly and totally ridiculous 'solutions'. As a temporary sticky plaster I could just about accept them but being written into new regulations is beyond lame.

Rant over.
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 14:08 (Ref:3158022)   #2531
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So LMP regulations...

The Big Honking Fin. At one point, the ACO were planning to make it smaller. What's happening on that front?
You must refer to Autosport article from March: "The ACO/FIA document acknowledges that the shark fin is "totally unaesthetic". A reduction in size would be considered if sideways stability could be maintained".

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1834

Clearly the sideways stability could not be maintained...
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 14:11 (Ref:3158023)   #2532
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You must refer to Autosport article from March: "The ACO/FIA document acknowledges that the shark fin is "totally unaesthetic". A reduction in size would be considered if sideways stability could be maintained".

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1834

Clearly the sideways stability could not be maintained...
Well that's a hammerblow to the one thing I wanted or cared about in the new regs.

Thanks for the answer though.
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 14:20 (Ref:3158030)   #2533
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Seems like the FIA asked if anyone had any better ideas and none were forthcoming.
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 14:20 (Ref:3158032)   #2534
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I think it hasn't been pointed out yet that the 120km/h AWD rule is not in the 2014 draft. Either it has never been or Audi successfully lobbied its removal (especially after this years findings...).
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Old 26 Oct 2012, 22:35 (Ref:3158252)   #2535
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Congratulations, you just invented the DP. Brilliant!

dh
If you want a good example of what can be done with an off the shelf tub take a look at the Delta wing.....




........I belive the tub started life in the ill fated Aston Martin P1.

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Old 26 Oct 2012, 23:42 (Ref:3158272)   #2536
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Can't the closed top prototypes use roof flaps?
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Old 27 Oct 2012, 09:47 (Ref:3158380)   #2537
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VdeV cars are cost capped to ~100k€ and some of the have carbon fiber tubs as well.
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Old 27 Oct 2012, 16:03 (Ref:3158542)   #2538
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If you want a good example of what can be done with an off the shelf tub take a look at the Delta wing.....




........I belive the tub started life in the ill fated Aston Martin P1.


But isn't the Delta Wing, the cookie cutter image of the defunct P-1?





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Old 27 Oct 2012, 20:45 (Ref:3158637)   #2539
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The December 2012 edition of RCE has an interview with John Judd: http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue...&prev=sub&p=26

Judd believes that he can produce a competitive gasoline for 2014.
Quote:
The technical part of the regulations is defined. We have energy usage and the engine is free. I totally support that. The difficult bit is that it is easy for Audi and Toyota; they can just go and do their hybrid, but for use, will our customer teams do the 830 kg non-hybrid petrol engine? Perhaps we'll do a V10 for that. The name of the game is getting the best fuel consumption. We can do a god job with the V8 or the V10. The V8 is 3.4 liters, the V10 5.5, so the horsepower will be between 400-600, the mid-point. You can do that with either engine with not a lot of revs.

A normally aspirated petrol engine wants to be light, run low rpm, direct injection, and it is unlikely that we will do a turbo engine. The development cost of doing that would put it out of reach of the privateers. I don't know if the teams will go 830 kg non-hybrid, or mild hybrid solution. Any hybrid will be more complex and expensive for the teams to manage, and we need opinions from teams to do that and see what it is going to be.

It is intended that we will have privateers, but they won't be able to win. You might do OK in the first year because some of the hybrids will trip up, but the ACO's intention for the hybrids is that they will win. Back in the early 2000s, Audi was wiping the floor at Le Mans with a petrol engine, no hybrid, no diesel, just that they had more monkeys and typewriters and did a better job. The manufacturer domination is nothing new, and not attributable to the diesel or hybrid.

It is down to fuel consumption, and you need the best you can get. I am confident that we can produce a good petrol engine. The average power over a lap will be achieved by the best engine that has the best fuel consumption, grams per kilowatt hour. We have ideas how to do that and they include producing a light engine, low revving, reduce friction losses and we can do that OK. The question is whether or not anyone will be there, and we rely on that. We are like a corner shop. We need to make more money than we spend.
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Old 27 Oct 2012, 21:11 (Ref:3158657)   #2540
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The article also explains that in 2013 LMP2 engines must last longer between rebuilds.

An extract from the LMP 2012 technical regulations
Quote:
5.6 LMP2 homologated engine
5.6.1 Type
The engine must be made in a minimum of 1000 units in 12 consecutive months and come :
- Either from a grand touring car,
- Or from a large production car.
It is made reliable for competition use and developed to reach the output target of 450 hp without exceeding the price below:
If the engine is sold:
  • Purchase price: € 75 000 maximum
  • Rebuilt price: € 35 000 maximum
  • Engine life between 2 rebuilds:
    Target: 2011: 30 h, 2013: 50h
If the engine is leased:
The hourly operating cost must be:
  • €1650 in 2011 and 2012 (30 h between 2 rebuilds)
  • €1150 in 2013 (50 h between 2 rebuilds)
Judd is not happy with that requirement:
Quote:
There are concerns among the manufacturers, particularly Nissan and ourselves, regarding the life of the standard parts. We have got standard parts that don't do enough miles. It is absolutely stupid to make a regulation that says that you cannot use a racing engine. You have to use an engine that is made for something else. It is like saying that you have to use a washing machine as a fridge.

We could do a cheaper and a better job with a racing engine. All the major components with that will do 20,000 km, but we have parts now that won't do 8,000 km! In 2010 we were supplying DBs to race performance at a bit below the cost cap for the following year, but it was interesting to see that after 35 years, Formula 3 engines are not production based. You have a million production-based four cylinder engines, but the FIA have allowed race engines instead. It is heavily cost capped, but you can do a racing engine.
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Old 27 Oct 2012, 21:29 (Ref:3158668)   #2541
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OT: How did you manage to copy text from the Zinio article preview?
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Old 27 Oct 2012, 21:37 (Ref:3158672)   #2542
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OT: How did you manage to copy text from the Zinio article preview?
Not. I typed everything myself
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 08:06 (Ref:3158861)   #2543
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Not. I typed everything myself
Bravo!
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 19:50 (Ref:3159162)   #2544
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I just read the RCE article on the unraced 908 HYbrid 4. It seems that Peugeot was highly successful at influencing the hybrid regulations to their advantage.

1) Peugeot convinced the ACO to reduce the capacity of hybrids from 1 MJ to 500 kJ. Peugeot states "economic reasons", but in reality they could not do 1 MJ with their battery based system.
Quote:
We thought that 1 MJ was too much, and fought to get it reduced, for economic reasons, and we had good compromise with the level of power and storage level to use the rule as it is. We were working with the ACO and FIA to adjust the rule because we were discovering new things together. One of the question was that the technical rules say you can deliver the 500 kJ between two braking areas. But what is a braking area, and how many are there in the Le Mans track?
2) Peugeot lobbied hard for the 120 km/h rule that currently hampers the hybrid system from Audi.
Quote:
We had to decide with the main manufactuers, the ACO and the FIA. And we had a big fight about the 120 kmh rule, to reduce the advantage of a four-wheel drive car. At least it was something! We were definitely against the four-wheel drive system at Le Mans, and the ACO and the FIA agreed, and tried to reduce the obvious advantage given to Audi.
Interestingly, both these restrictions are gone in the 2014 rules. The 2014 rules allow for 8 MJ per lap. And as there are 7 braking zones in Le Mans, this means around 1 MJ per braking zone.

I wonder whether there will be any changes in 2013 hybrid rules. Toyota clearly has a big advantage because they can use their hybrid system from 0 km/h. Maybe the 120 km/h limitation should also apply to rear hybrid systems. Of course, this would mean that Toyota would not be able to use the hybrid system in the pitlane.

Audi could use a rule change in their favor, because otherwise Toyota will completely dominate the 2013 WEC.
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 19:53 (Ref:3159163)   #2545
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I wonder whether there will be any changes in 2013 hybrid rules. Toyota clearly has a big advantage because they can use their hybrid system from 0 km/h. Maybe the 120 km/h limitation should also apply to rear hybrid systems. Of course, this would mean that Toyota would not be able to use the hybrid system in the pitlane.
Or if they want to keep the 120 kph limitation for the front-wheel-drive hybrids, they should write the regulations so that the limit applies everywhere except in the pitlane.

As for Toyota dominating the 2013 WEC? It's not domination if you don't win Le Mans, just ask the board of directors at Velizy.
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 20:03 (Ref:3159170)   #2546
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Or if they want to keep the 120 kph limitation for the front-wheel-drive hybrids, they should write the regulations so that the limit applies everywhere except in the pitlane.
Toyota argued that the hybrid system would give them faster acceleration in the pitlane. However, in practice the Toyota stops were still a bit slower than Audi's.
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As for Toyota dominating the 2013 WEC? It's not domination if you don't win Le Mans, just ask the board of directors at Velizy.
If the rules remain the same, Le Mans might to the only track where Audi has a chance of victory in 2013.

Toyota completely dominated Sao Paulo and Shanghai this year. With some developments during the winter, Toyota will probably humiliate Audi everywhere next year.
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 20:07 (Ref:3159172)   #2547
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Toyota argued that the hybrid system would give them faster acceleration in the pitlane. However, in practice the Toyota stops were still a bit slower than Audi's.
That one probably comes down to relative fuel tank sizes and fuel flow restrictors on the filler hoses more than anything else.
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 22:46 (Ref:3159237)   #2548
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Interestingly, both these restrictions are gone in the 2014 rules.
If two systems becomes a must basically, it makes sense...
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 23:43 (Ref:3159260)   #2549
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http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept12.html sort of confirms that Wirth Research will have a LMP1 (coupe!) in 2014.
Quote:
2013 will see a new development of this years ALMS winning LMP1 car - new designation ARX-03a

The double championship winning LMP2 car - ARX-03b - will continue and may have further teams running it.

And we're very busy on the 2014 car - currently designated ARX-04
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Old 28 Oct 2012, 23:54 (Ref:3159266)   #2550
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On the race broadcast, the RLM guys were speculating that 1MJ per braking zone would be introduced next season since there is no Peugeot. In my opinion, Audi has 4wd and 4wd shouldn't be full time/anytime. That's the direction they chose knowing it's 120kmh+. And if the rules are rewrote to make 4wd full time/anytime, Toyota could do the same in 2014 if they choose to. So their decision to run 4wd may only have worked to their favor for one season- this season, unless they allow that change for next year? But, that doesn't look likely and only 2014 could see this allowed, by which time Toyota or Porsche could do the same thing!
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