[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by AGD

Right, but there were times where Strakka did the same thing last year where they had a mechanical issue that set them back by a fairly significant amount and they would blow by the Judds and Zyteks to win. I can't remember the circumstances exactly, but wasn't there a race last year where Strakka came back from a lap or two down late after an issue to end up winning LMP2?

Yes, matter of fact they even won overall down in hungary.

Originally Posted by AGD

Well, to be fair, Strakka seemed to have a slight edge on Highcroft and Strakka will be back with what looks like a fairly competitive petrol LMP1 next year. Ok, I'm not sure if it will compete for wins with the diesels since it won't have the same level of development, but it may shame the rest of the petrols depending on what they do. Of course, as you say, this will be a pro-am effort so certainly they are up against it given that they are going up against the diesels.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by AGD

Right, but there were times where Strakka did the same thing last year where they had a mechanical issue that set them back by a fairly significant amount and they would blow by the Judds and Zyteks to win. I can't remember the circumstances exactly, but wasn't there a race last year where Strakka came back from a lap or two down late after an issue to end up winning LMP2?

Silverstone last year, they had a puncture and a damaged legality panel and came back to win the class. The overall win in Hungary was simply an absolutely trouble-free run.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Félix

Yippee, a manufacturer to get rules their way in 2014. Only 2 years of intense bore to go.

The bumper car problem is not that the factory cars do it, it's that they're so fast that they can still finish in front of untroubled cars.



There are many imperfect comparisons one can do but we'll never get a clear and final answer that stops all debates. We can only look back afterwards and things appear a little clearer based on the development and rule changes from the following year(s)... and when we look back at 2010 stats, what we can all agree on is that there is no way to compare the Highcroft HPD's speed because it didn't come back. Good efforts like these keep disappearing, entries don't look serious anymore because they don't go with only pro drivers and pretty soon we are faced with a lack of competition that stems not from the diesels' superiority, but simply from the fact that everyone else has given up. Nothing to compare, even harder to know how big the injustice was in the first place. And very few people left to complain.

I was completely disappointed by the lack of serious entries for my first time at Le Mans this year. It seems everyone has moved way past competing for winning the race and either lets sons of millionaires drive their cars, is content with half-measures and getting paid to merely show up. When someone talks about winning... it's the petrol class. Maybe it's just because I idealized that whole thing as an actual sport.

You may be dissapointed but I see the current prototype grid as having the highest quality and strength in depth for perhaps twenty years. Up front you have giants fighting for the win, behind petrol teams which are getting stronger and an upward trajectory for the sport.

The real despressing time was the early 2000's when the R8 was crushingly dominant, with little manufactuer competition on the horizon and only a handful of credible privateers like Pescarolo and Dyson.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by JAG

The real despressing time was the early 2000's when the R8 was crushingly dominant, with little manufactuer competition on the horizon and only a handful of credible privateers like Pescarolo and Dyson.

Disagree. Le Mans had much more depth back then, a few cars were actually faster than the R8s in practice and qualifying. There were many more projects and the interesting cars had decent drivers behind the wheel. 2000 was a bit like 2011, with a very scattered field but with only 1 manufacturer competing for victory. Cadillac was the AMR. 2001 and 2002 brought new cars/efforts and some hope of seeing Audi have to work for it. And Audi never had that big of a lap time advantage, they won because of reliability and consistency. A privateer with a perfectly sorted car (impossible then) would have finished around 5 laps back. That era never got me depressed. Or maybe it's the economy that makes it so depressing nowadays?

Just take a team like Racing for Holland. Their car was different from the others, they usually overtook some factory cars in the first lap. They always ran pros in their car(s). You can find very few efforts that are that serious nowadays (and they weren't more professional than many others), and they run further from the factory cars despite running cars that are arguably much more sorted. And in the end they still ran out of money and pulled out because they didn't achieve impressive results. Imagine how it goes for a team nowadays then: the owner has to throw in his own money and the main concern is not competing with the front runners but simply being there.

[JAG]

We'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think there's any comparison between the LMP (and GT) grids back then and the strength and depth today with the factories, Rebellion, Strakka, OAK, ORECA, Pescarolo etc. I think that's bore out by the fact we're moving into a World Championship era while the best on offer back then was the FIA SCC.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Félix

2000 was a bit like 2011, with a very scattered field but with only 1 manufacturer competing for victory.

I don't know about that. Audi gave everyone a total butt kicking in 2000. Oh, and the AMR-One was worse than the 2000 Cadillacs, but that should not be considered a compliment towards the Cadillac! Audi and Peugeot were very close in 2011 obviously. 2000 was still an intriguing race with all the tricks Audi had up their sleeves that year, but the nature of the battle for the win was different than what we saw this year.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Err....if the R18 was petrol would it be as fast as it is now? Likely. So yes, swap diesel for petrol and it'd have still occurred (driver error not powertrain...).

I don't think the Accident would have occurred because I don't think McNish could have gotten along side the Ferrari without the immense torque of the turbo-diesel. He probably would have passed the other R18 as the car was balked by the GT, but would a petrol have enough instant squirt to make that banzai move?

dh

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

I don't know about that. Audi gave everyone a total butt kicking in 2000. Oh, and the AMR-One was worse than the 2000 Cadillacs, but that should not be considered a compliment towards the Cadillac! Audi and Peugeot were very close in 2011 obviously. 2000 was still an intriguing race with all the tricks Audi had up their sleeves that year, but the nature of the battle for the win was different than what we saw this year.

Back then Audi didn't need to push development as today. On the one hand that meant some privateers had a sniff at the R8 but reliabilty, pitwork, strategy etc. was often lacking. Today petrol teams do need some performance help but the areas above have been massively improved which will enable them to take advantage of such a break.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

I don't think the Accident would have occurred because I don't think McNish could have gotten along side the Ferrari without the immense torque of the turbo-diesel. He probably would have passed the other R18 as the car was balked by the GT, but would a petrol have enough instant squirt to make that banzai move?

dh

i like your thinking

[Félix]

Originally Posted by JAG

We'll have to agree to disagree, I don't think there's any comparison between the LMP (and GT) grids back then and the strength and depth today with the factories, Rebellion, Strakka, OAK, ORECA, Pescarolo etc. I think that's bore out by the fact we're moving into a World Championship era while the best on offer back then was the FIA SCC.

Rebellion, Strakka, OAK, ORECA, Pescarolo etc. Etc obviously doesn't count as a team, the other sporadic/Le Mans entrants are weak field fillers that should not be there any more than Spinaker Clandesteam. No depth. No sign of new entrants coming in. At best some P2 teams move around.

Back then, there were ORECA, Pescarolo, Courage, Arena, John Nielsen's team, Racing for Holland, Lister with recent machinery that they were developing; Jim Matthews, Panoz, Intersport and Champion making the trip to Le Mans from America; and finally smaller private teams that could buy some of the many off-the-shelf option back then - like Martin Short who kicked the Reynard 01Q's tires before entering Dallaras and then the Pescarolo for years.

I tell you, there was a lot more to keep fans like us interested and hopeful. Now the list of future projects is almost nonexistent. The amount of unbuilt designs kicking around is staggering (various Wirth/HPDs, Oreca 02, project from some ex-F1 blokes, Epsilon EE02) and it is only rivalled by the amount of perfectly good and promising cars that are not raced right now because no one sees the interest in paying for that (Porsche RS Spyder, Dome S102, Epsilon EE01, Acura ARX-02, Toyota rolling testbed).

Follow the "racing" if it's good enough for you, but I've come to expect more - variety! - than 2 vastly superior entrants out of sportscars racing.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Félix

Follow the "racing" if it's good enough for you, but I've come to expect more - variety! - than 2 vastly superior entrants out of sportscars racing.

I guess we all like different things, I'm suprised you've picked out what I consider a quite poor, stagnant time for the sport, I could understand if you were going back a little further to '97-'99.

The biggest challenge today is ensuring very capable teams get spots on the enlarged fifty-five car Le Mans entry list, in the early 2000's we were hoping the Spinaker Clan Des Team's of this world turn up once a year to give us a decent race.

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

I don't think the Accident would have occurred because I don't think McNish could have gotten along side the Ferrari without the immense torque of the turbo-diesel. He probably would have passed the other R18 as the car was balked by the GT, but would a petrol have enough instant squirt to make that banzai move?

dh

Funny thing is I do believe it'd have been exactly the same circumstances, why? For one we don't know just how powerful an Audi or Peugeot developed P1 petrol engine would be and two, if they were petrol they'd likely still have a ton of power and torque to go making those banzai moves.

[deggis]

New regs and Audi and Pug both selected diesel. This itself is an argument.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

...considering that Audi and Peugeot reported in '10 spent $75-150 million on their programs that year (much of that money going into Le Mans)

Where was reported?

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by deggis

Where was reported?

I don't know 'where,' but I've seen quotes from ... McNish I think... who claimed Audi focused solely on Le Mans. The fact their cars have been good elsewhere has merely been a side benefit.(paraphrasing of course)

[deggis]

I meant the budget figure.

[chernaudi]

Audi spent at least $75 million on the R8 the first year of it's life, and spent at least that much on the R10 and R15, and Speed in 2010 reported from LM that Audi and Peugeot may've spent well over $100 million on Le Mans and their partial ALMS/LMS seasons.

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

An old decrepit Judd V8, an SGT-sourced toyota engine, and Straight Six 2.0l Pop tart are not going cut it against an Audi V6 TDI and Puegeot V8 HDI. end of. Dont bring grandma's butter knife to a new sword exposition and ask for the swords to get cut back to size.

The problem here is that Judd, Zytek, AMR, AER etc have the development cash to compete with a manufacturer. I don't know how much a lease for an engine for a season is but the proportion that gets put back into development is probably pretty low.

Lets be honest here none of these guys have even run with direct injection yet....Audi brought that out in what 2003? 8 years and none of them have it....that is your problem.

None of these privateer engines are even close to cutting edge and that is why no privateer will compete with a factory unless a big name manufacturer steps up and supplies works developed engines.

The HPD engine showed that they were a cut above any other engine manufacturers but even that was shown to be slightly lacking. The only way to compete in P1 as a privateer is with a Wirth chassis and HPD engine....but given Honda stepping away from P1 even that combination will lose more time next year than in previous years as there is just not the cash to develop it...end of.

[Deleted]

I've "only" heard of 50-70m annual budgets for the diesels.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The problem here is that Judd, Zytek, AMR, AER etc have the development cash to compete with a manufacturer. I don't know how much a lease for an engine for a season is but the proportion that gets put back into development is probably pretty low.

Lets be honest here none of these guys have even run with direct injection yet....Audi brought that out in what 2003? 8 years and none of them have it....that is your problem.

None of these privateer engines are even close to cutting edge and that is why no privateer will compete with a factory unless a big name manufacturer steps up and supplies works developed engines.

The HPD engine showed that they were a cut above any other engine manufacturers but even that was shown to be slightly lacking. The only way to compete in P1 as a privateer is with a Wirth chassis and HPD engine....but given Honda stepping away from P1 even that combination will lose more time next year than in previous years as there is just not the cash to develop it...end of.

RS spyder's engine was cutting edge, and I think it would be easy to port it to lmp1, but then since porsche is comming in 2014 its highly unlicky they will be seeling them to privateers, it aso had dfi I belive in from the 2009

[DS"]

Originally Posted by arakis

RS spyder's engine was cutting edge, and I think it would be easy to port it to lmp1, but then since porsche is comming in 2014 its highly unlicky they will be seeling them to privateers, it aso had dfi I belive in from the 2009

Porsche might indeed re-use its LMP2 engine. But I think that they'll prefer their trademark flat-6 engine. The question will be, whether it'll be a 2l-turbo or a N/A-engine.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by DS"

Porsche might indeed re-use its LMP2 engine. But I think that they'll prefer their trademark flat-6 engine. The question will be, whether it'll be a 2l-turbo or a N/A-engine.

I think the flat 6 desing is not for the new protos, otherwise they would have used it for the RSspyder, I think it has to do with the packing,I think a V8 is more compackt

[DS"]

Originally Posted by arakis

I think the flat 6 desing is not for the new protos, otherwise they would have used it for the RSspyder, I think it has to do with the packing,I think a V8 is more compackt

I think we had that discussion before, so I won't pick it up again. On the other hand, I doubt that Porsche would be so stupid to listen to its marketing department about how they should design their LMP.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The problem here is that Judd, Zytek, AMR, AER etc have the development cash to compete with a manufacturer. I don't know how much a lease for an engine for a season is but the proportion that gets put back into development is probably pretty low.

Lets be honest here none of these guys have even run with direct injection yet....Audi brought that out in what 2003? 8 years and none of them have it....that is your problem.

None of these privateer engines are even close to cutting edge and that is why no privateer will compete with a factory unless a big name manufacturer steps up and supplies works developed engines.

The HPD engine showed that they were a cut above any other engine manufacturers but even that was shown to be slightly lacking. The only way to compete in P1 as a privateer is with a Wirth chassis and HPD engine....but given Honda stepping away from P1 even that combination will lose more time next year than in previous years as there is just not the cash to develop it...end of.

Direct injection is at its limits with an engine revving over 10k rpm max. The 2012 Indycar engines will be the first to do it after Porsche (and Judd is developing one for Lotus). Ever. Porsche planned it from the start of the RS Spyder program and it only came to fruition for the program's last 2 races. It was such a pointy system that it was never adapted for the 2009 and 2010 engine regs. And we're talking about Porsche.

Now you might seriously think that the performance difference between the current Judd DB and the Porsche engine when it was at its best is big enough that it would make current petrol engines competitive with diesels if they were developed that much. I don't. Others might believe that an era like 1997-1998 when one manufacturer took advantage of the rules and dominated all the races - except at Le Mans where the rule balance was different and many entrants entered for one-offs - was better than another when many privateers entered with highly diversified equipment because they felt they could get close to Audi -at least over a lap. That would make them happy with today's state of affairs. The problem is that there aren't many entrants left who are happy with how the rules have been for the last few years, and the economy isn't helping. Where can we seriously expect to find 20 decent P1 entrants for next year's Le Mans??

It's not all bad now because one of the few teams that's left running a pro effort even saw its owner choose to get out of the car at Silverstone. OAK hired 2 guys of factory driver grade and had a flawless run, something we would never have seen 6 to 10 years ago. Where it gets interesting is that Alexandre Prémat was at Audi before and knew the R15 quite well. What did he have to say? The OAK chassis is better. (this week's Autosport) It will get a massive upgrade for 2012 with wider tires and new aero undoubtedly, but if the rules don't change enough they'll still get murdered on the straights and even monsieur Nicolet will take his money elsewhere.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Félix

Where it gets interesting is that Alexandre Prémat was at Audi before and knew the R15 quite well. What did he have to say? The OAK chassis is better. (this week's Autosport) It will get a massive upgrade for 2012 with wider tires and new aero undoubtedly, but if the rules don't change enough they'll still get murdered on the straights and even monsieur Nicolet will take his money elsewhere.

Premat go Fired from Audi. He got kicked from Lemans and DTM in one fell swoop. Not to say the R15 was a good car, we know it suffered from understeer. But Premat doesnt exactly owe Audi an favors.