Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[TRuss]

Funny choice of words in the last sentence AGD as I have posted before that it reminds me of the penis car from the "Ambiguosly Gay Duo" cartoons.

Felix, I am in favor of most anything except for something that is already a proven failure. Even the folks from the IRL could recognize that this thing is non sense. The car is not proving anything that is relevant to the future of the automobile and therefore is not in the true spirit of the garage that it will occupy at LeMans. I feel that two more technically interesting concepts were passed over simply because they didn't have a few powerful names associated with them. The car is focusing on lightweight and I love that, but I don't understand why it has to look the way it does to be lighweight. Any skilled builder can build a 1,000 pound sports car in their garage and have it come out looking like a sports car. I'm all for innovation but not at the expense of aesthetics and common sense. The car is ugly, the car has already failed to impress those who are easily impressed, why would I want to see it at LeMans? Or anywhere else.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by AGD

There are bigger problems with the situation though. There is a serious possibility that the DeltaWing could become some sort of spec subclass within LMP1. That would not be good. It seems that Don is trying to use his power and connections to force a way to get this car in a favorable position so he can make some money selling his products.

We already have a spec Lola LMP1 class in the ALMS, with a spec Oreca LMPC class. I doubt it will be a spec class anywhere, because you would have to have people buy it and run it!

Highcroft showed how good the ARX-01e was in its single outing this year, but (so far) people haven't been knocking down the doors to buy one from HPD/Wirth. I expect the same to happen with the Deltashwing. Maybe Highcroft can get a good result or two with it, but unless it is considerably cheaper than anything else you won't have too many people interested in it.

All in all, I am excited to see this thing run. Maybe the final version will look a little better too, who knows?

[gttouring]

Well it is lemans and in the end I will welcome this thing to show itself, sometimes change is hard, the point isn't to change everything but to offer another solution. What troubles me is the trikes layout as one powered wheel in back is best me thinks...morgan anyone. Puegeot 20cup and such. While the d-wing set up will make the rules eventually ban leaning axles which I think will be needed to get the most from the car. And that crazy active differential. So it can actually turn.. never mind the way it MUST use its own aero rule to work vs. A commen rule set- imagine the diesel audi and pug with unlimited under tray aero llike what the delta essentially uses

[DistortedSmile]

I can’t help but agree with the negative sentiments regarding this ridiculous phalic shaped car, mainly because it’s not a sportscar in any way shape or form, I also don’t think it’s very innovative aside from it’s ''unique'' looks, IMO the 56th entry was completely wasted in this thing when it could have gone to something actually innovative and road relevant like the Porsche 918 RSR or the GreenGT.

I believe it was Atherton who said something about how excited they were at the prospect of this thing becoming a class at the ALMS and how they swore it would attract young people into the sport, well I showed the DW to my younger cousin and his friends, they’re the kind of kids who have started noticing sportscar racing through Forza and other videogames, they just plain laughed at it and were in disbelief that it was actually gonna be running at Le Mans next year, most of the reactions I’ve seen in automotive related websites were mostly negative too.

[Félix]

Yes it looks big-time silly, but at least it will run.

Highcroft Racing are multiple ALMS champions and ran the only P1 that could kinda stay with the factory P1s. They ran it once and didn't even make it to Le Mans. Every other project is even worse and likewise doesn't race or does it at a pathetically uncompetitive pace.

So yes that is the best we can get. Personally I think it's very stupid to discredit it and wish it won't run when there's nothing else. And we have to admit it, we all want to find out whether it will turn and how efficient/fast it will be with AAR and Highcroft behind it. Once again, this anticipation is something that no other project can even come close to offering.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by joeb

We already have a spec Lola LMP1 class in the ALMS, with a spec Oreca LMPC class. I doubt it will be a spec class anywhere, because you would have to have people buy it and run it!

The ALMS has all kinds of Lolas! You have the long and short wheelbase closed top coupes, the AMR coupe, and a prehistoric open-topper!

As uninspiring as the current crop of ALMS LMP1s might be, at least they are running to the rules. I hope the DeltaWing proves to be as unpopular with the teams as you say it will be, but the ALMS/ACO have the potential to make the rules as favorable toward the DeltaWing as possible in order to make it the car to own. Will they do that? Maybe not, but that's the risk with a spec sub-class. It's a risk that is unnecessary at this point.

Originally Posted by Félix

So yes that is the best we can get. Personally I think it's very stupid to discredit it and wish it won't run when there's nothing else. And we have to admit it, we all want to find out whether it will turn and how efficient/fast it will be with AAR and Highcroft behind it. Once again, this anticipation is something that no other project can even come close to offering.

Why even bother with the 56th garage if this is the best we can get? One of Peugeot or Audi will likely have a hybrid LMP1 in the race next year. Maybe both of them will be hybrid. Those cars, plus any other hybrids like the Hope and Tokai University cars, encompass the spirit of the 56th garage rules more than the DeltaWing and they are already within the rules! Anyway, there is a decent likelihood that a competitive LMP2 or GTE car will be on the reserve list, why not give them the 56th garage instead of sticking with a flawed concept since there will already be mildly green cars already? Or why not go with the GreenGT? Ok, it may not have great pace, but it is truly revolutionary "green" technology with potential road car applications. Plus, they understand the aesthetic (at least visual) appeal of racing!

The DeltaWing can run a few demo laps at Le Mans the same way the GreenGT test car, the Nissan Leaf, and Honda CR-Z did this year. They can prove whatever they want to prove without dicking up the race!

[TRuss]

I feel no anticipation in regards to watching this car.

I and I think the others who are not excited about this car taking the 56th garage are not happy with the choice because we feel that a strange shape does not warrant it's occupancy of that garage. I was of the understanding that cars that would offer the development of new drivetrain technologies to help improve the automobile for all of us would be in that garage. Two other cars fullfilled that and were ignored in favor of a once failed indy car concept that offers no real development or progression of the automobile or even racing cars.

Simply, I would rather have seen the first off the pace steps of the cars not chosen and be allowed to watch the true future of the automobile begin to unfold.

[gttouring]

I am not bothered terribly by the shape and as an oval only car I think it would have worked well enough. But as a two seat 'roadcar' too much of the new tech or different ideas stray from an good idea. If the thing needs a special diff to turn at all what kind of steering is that? Not one where pure driver input is doing so is it? And the load on the front tires in the said turns will be some magic. New ideas are great but delta wing please don't insult people when no one wanted you at the party and push your ideas in the 56th where a real develoment group can shine.
this thing was built around a single dearer idea making it a twin cockpit can't be goodfor the original setup now they need a new r factor simulation.
really why could they not build a proto andlet dan wheldon drive it at every irl track left to proof of concept. le mans adventure is not quite what this is for so stop pretending.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TRuss

I feel no anticipation in regards to watching this car.

I and I think the others who are not excited about this car taking the 56th garage are not happy with the choice because we feel that a strange shape does not warrant it's occupancy of that garage. I was of the understanding that cars that would offer the development of new drivetrain technologies to help improve the automobile for all of us would be in that garage. Two other cars fullfilled that and were ignored in favor of a once failed indy car concept that offers no real development or progression of the automobile or even racing cars.

Simply, I would rather have seen the first off the pace steps of the cars not chosen and be allowed to watch the true future of the automobile begin to unfold.

Those are interesting points, particularly about future development or progression of the automobile or even racing cars. I can't help but think that one reason for having the D-Wing in garage 56, is purely down to marketing by the ACO and thus generating more interest in the race, attracting more sponsors and a larger crowd attendance and in the end more money.

[JAG]

Why even bother with the 56th garage if this is the best we can get? One of Peugeot or Audi will likely have a hybrid LMP1 in the race next year. Maybe both of them will be hybrid. Those cars, plus any other hybrids like the Hope and Tokai University cars, encompass the spirit of the 56th garage rules more than the DeltaWing and they are already within the rules!

Hybrid P1's, 918 RSR's etc. aren't meant for the 56th garage, they are using cutting edge technology that should be competing in the race proper.

The DW is proving a concept, low weight, low drag, low power, this can be applied to most cars, but to a less extreme degree.

Audi won't turn up with a car sporting a DW shap, but they may run a something much lighter, less powerful than todays R18, and ditch high drag wings in favour of ground effects.

[Simmi]

I can't believe how butt-hurt people are getting over this project. Anyone would think it was the trigger for bringing about the apocalypse in 2012. I'm not going be cheering it on but I'm intrigued to see how it runs, sounds and looks on track, who will drive it and what sort of lap time it can do. It will add another dimension to Le Mans next year.

It will be the first in hopefully a long sequence of hit and miss projects, all trying something a bit different. In my opinion the ACO were right to pick something like this as, worthy or not, it will bring plenty of exposure to Le Mans and the concept of the 56th garage.

[davehenrie]

The Delta Wing reminds me of the Granitelli Turbine Indy cars back in the late 60's. The Indy 500 was an open race, you could bring just about anything, until the old guard complained and they would ban the tech. But you at least got to try it.
The biggest weakness in the current Indy league format, is the Vanilla/Spec racer. Many may not remember, there were something like 3 irl chassis and several engine suppliers. One by one the big teams began eliminate the barely slower lesser chassis until only the Dallara was left standing. So even without a Spec design, the irl BECAME a spec class. The new tubs will cause some novelty for a year or two, but just like Grand Am, one chassis will rise above the rest.....
So what is the DeltaWing? It is just an attempt to find a different way to reach the start/finish line. I'm sure old Front Engine Novi fans were just as appalled by the Jet Engine on the side that Andy Granetelli brought. I wonder if the internet was around back in the 60's if we would be crucifying Jim Hall for having floppy wings and snow-mobile powered cars.(I know...) Different isn't always better, but 'sometimes' it can be.

dh

[AGD]

No way! If you are going to compare Granatelli's turbines with anything in today's grid, it would have to be the diesels! People complained back then about the lack of sound from "Silent Sam," people today complain about the lack of sound from the diesels! I don't think it is fair to compare the turbines with the Audis though, they were more like the Peugeots. Granatelli was always finding ways to choke away certain victory!

If you want to compare an Indycar to the DeltaWing, I would go with Smokey Yunick's Sidecar Indycar. I don't know what people thought about it back in the day, but I'll let you guess what people thought about it! Maybe the 1981 Eagle Aircraft Flyer Indycar that failed to make Indy is closer to the Delta Wing.

Anyway, any of these comparisons is silly. Those cars came and tried to contend within the rulebooks. If the Deltawing is ever allowed in LMP1, there is a good chance it will be with it's own "spec" rules. Those supporting this thing on the basis of hating "spec" rules may actually be supporting specification. And for what reason? Just because Don Panoz wants to make a few bucks selling cars?

There are still a lot of neat things that teams bring to Le Mans and other sports car races that are within the regular rulebook. It looks like hybrids are the next thing we will see and we may see some really interesting setups by the top teams. It's stuff like that that is comparable to the old school stuff that we [sometimes] miss.

As for the IRL, it was pretty much a conscious decision to go "spec" on the chassis front. Although a lot of teams switched to Dallaras anyway for performance reasons, Firestone did not want to develop tires for two chassis (which led to some of the performance differences in the first place) and eventually the IRL seemingly decided to cut the Panoz G-Force off because Panoz made a deal with Champ Car. Anyway, there were never more than 3 different chassis and 2 different engines or 2 different chassis and 3 different engines on an IRL track at the same time since the IRL went to normally aspirated engines. There were the Dallaras, G-Forces, and a few R&S chassis mated to Oldsmobiles and Infinitis in the older days and Dallaras and G-Forces mated to Hondas, Toyotas, and Chevrolets in the mid 2000s.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I can't believe how butt-hurt people are getting over this project. Anyone would think it was the trigger for bringing about the apocalypse in 2012. I'm not going be cheering it on but I'm intrigued to see how it runs, sounds and looks on track, who will drive it and what sort of lap time it can do. It will add another dimension to Le Mans next year.

It will be the first in hopefully a long sequence of hit and miss projects, all trying something a bit different. In my opinion the ACO were right to pick something like this as, worthy or not, it will bring plenty of exposure to Le Mans and the concept of the 56th garage.

Yeah that. Exactly.

Although I'm not sure the ACO has already chosen any specific project for garage 56 next year. It was part of a press conference also featuring the Green GT - that's been running for 2 years using a very low-tech and CN-ish chassis - and the Courage electric project - that's been talked about for 18 months without anything concrete appearing and looking like the 2006 LC70 on the renderings. There's also the 918 RSR that could be in the running for such a spot according to some - but it was unveiled like the first 918 as a video rendering with the actual car being just a static display model that I'm sure has never run as fast as the PR stuff says it can. The ACO could also invite them, or make two special grid spots available, or invite all the contenders for a shoot-out.

But then you have the DeltaWing being built by AAR, that receives backing from the ALMS big wigs and will be run by Highcroft who have a 22-day test program in mind. See the difference?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by AGD

No way! If you are going to compare Granatelli's turbines with anything in today's grid, it would have to be the diesels! People complained back then about the lack of sound from "Silent Sam," people today complain about the lack of sound from the diesels! I don't think it is fair to compare the turbines with the Audis though, they were more like the Peugeots. Granatelli was always finding ways to choke away certain victory!

If you want to compare an Indycar to the DeltaWing, I would go with Smokey Yunick's Sidecar Indycar. I don't know what people thought about it back in the day, but I'll let you guess what people thought about it! Maybe the 1981 Eagle Aircraft Flyer Indycar that failed to make Indy is closer to the Delta Wing.

Anyway, any of these comparisons is silly. Those cars came and tried to contend within the rulebooks. If the Deltawing is ever allowed in LMP1, there is a good chance it will be with it's own "spec" rules. Those supporting this thing on the basis of hating "spec" rules may actually be supporting specification. And for what reason? Just because Don Panoz wants to make a few bucks selling cars?

There are still a lot of neat things that teams bring to Le Mans and other sports car races that are within the regular rulebook. It looks like hybrids are the next thing we will see and we may see some really interesting setups by the top teams. It's stuff like that that is comparable to the old school stuff that we [sometimes] miss.

As for the IRL, it was pretty much a conscious decision to go "spec" on the chassis front. Although a lot of teams switched to Dallaras anyway for performance reasons, Firestone did not want to develop tires for two chassis (which led to some of the performance differences in the first place) and eventually the IRL seemingly decided to cut the Panoz G-Force off because Panoz made a deal with Champ Car. Anyway, there were never more than 3 different chassis and 2 different engines or 2 different chassis and 3 different engines on an IRL track at the same time since the IRL went to normally aspirated engines. There were the Dallaras, G-Forces, and a few R&S chassis mated to Oldsmobiles and Infinitis in the older days and Dallaras and G-Forces mated to Hondas, Toyotas, and Chevrolets in the mid 2000s.

That's an excellent post.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by TRuss

I feel no anticipation in regards to watching this car.

I and I think the others who are not excited about this car taking the 56th garage are not happy with the choice because we feel that a strange shape does not warrant it's occupancy of that garage. I was of the understanding that cars that would offer the development of new drivetrain technologies to help improve the automobile for all of us would be in that garage. Two other cars fullfilled that and were ignored in favor of a once failed indy car concept that offers no real development or progression of the automobile or even racing cars.

Simply, I would rather have seen the first off the pace steps of the cars not chosen and be allowed to watch the true future of the automobile begin to unfold.

Perhaps the ACO should announce 3 candidates for the 56th garage at the Le Mans race and let the fans vote over the next couple of months who gets the entry for the following year? The 2 candidates that weren't chosen look way better than than this project.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Perhaps the ACO should announce 3 candidates for the 56th garage at the Le Mans race and let the fans vote over the next couple of months who gets the entry for the following year? The 2 candidates that weren't chosen look way better than than this project.

Please, where is it confirmed that the Delta Wing was chosen by the ACO for the june 2012 race? It was presented during a press conference alongside 2 other projects. It came first and got the most media attention because of the hype generated by the people involved - and the other projects' relative weakness (looks aside it seems). But I'm not aware of any confirmation that it was chosen.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Félix

Please, where is it confirmed that the Delta Wing was chosen by the ACO for the june 2012 race? It was presented during a press conference alongside 2 other projects. It came first and got the most media attention because of the hype generated by the people involved - and the other projects' relative weakness (looks aside it seems). But I'm not aware of any confirmation that it was chosen.

As far as I'm aware, the press releases around the time of the announcement said that the Delta Wing is the current 56th entry, while the other two projects are reserves for the 56th spot.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Perhaps the ACO should announce 3 candidates for the 56th garage at the Le Mans race and let the fans vote over the next couple of months who gets the entry for the following year? The 2 candidates that weren't chosen look way better than than this project.

I can't imagine companies would green-light projects in the vague hope that fans will vote them in. This isn't Nascar. The ACO run the show and they will invite whoever they want.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

As far as I'm aware, the press releases around the time of the announcement said that the Delta Wing is the current 56th entry, while the other two projects are reserves for the 56th spot.

It's not chosen or confirmed, just part of three "candidate" projects. http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-7393.html

Back to hating it because of its looks and because it's différent from anything else then. At least this one looks like it WILL happen...

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's an excellent post.

Ditto that!

DK

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Félix

It's not chosen or confirmed, just part of three "candidate" projects. http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-7393.html

Back to hating it because of its looks and because it's différent from anything else then. At least this one looks like it WILL happen...

I don't think that is correct. But if it is someone should probably tell Highcroft who say they have been granted the slot.

[JAG]

The DW is the favoured project but all candidates will have to prove themselves in race conditions prior to Le Mans.

The other two candidates may look more conventional but they are arguably further away from hitting the tracks, being competitive and reliable than the DW.

[dxk1]

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Delta-wing project and then some from the man himself, Don Panoz: http://www.americanlemans.com/primar...cat=news|16158

DK

[Carsandmotorracing]

God I hate the Delta Wing