ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If it makes you feel any better it is a 4-hour race, instead of regular 2h45min

It's not about making me feel better, it's about the ALMS taking a good thing and making it worse without any necessity.

Alright, that's pretty much their usual M.O., but still, VIR is one of the few tracks where the LMPs can really stretch their legs, and taking that away is just

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

VIR is one of the few tracks where the LMPs can really stretch their legs, and taking that away is just

I would rather it be Full as well, but have you actually looked at the track map? It does shorten the backstetch, but not by a huge amount. I do think the short section that is added on to convert Full to Grand is Mickey Mouse, but it's not the entire course and contrary to what Mr. Pumpelly says, while slow, its not a bunch of switchbacks. The bulk of Full remains including the main straight, uphill esses', Oak Tree, etc. The problem is that Full Course is great all by itself. There was no reason to do Grand, but I don't see it ruining the event. But time will tell.

Edit: I actually wonder if there was some safety concerns about the speed of cars entering the roller coaster section (end of the back stretch) and the nearby spectator areas in the infield?

Richard

[Simmi]

Confirms the clash with the WEC round in Brazil too. Time zones/maths are not my strong point but I suppose these could directly clash in terms of race time.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I would rather it be Full as well, but have you actually looked at the track map? It does shorten the backstetch, but not by a huge amount. I do think the short section that is added on to convert Full to Grand is Mickey Mouse, but it's not the entire course and contrary to what Mr. Pumpelly says, while slow, its not a bunch of switchbacks. The bulk of Full remains including the main straight, uphill esses', Oak Tree, etc. The problem is that Full Course is great all by itself. There was no reason to do Grand, but I don't see it ruining the event. But time will tell.

Edit: I actually wonder if there was some safety concerns about the speed of cars entering the roller coaster section (end of the back stretch) and the nearby spectator areas in the infield?

Richard

I know VIR well enough, over the years I've done tons of laps on every single bit of the track for various clientele.

The Grand course is perfect and will be more interesting than the full course.

The Grand doesn't take that much out of the back straight and due to the undulating terrain there I suspect that the full back straight might be a bit much for the LMP cars. The first 180 degree turn isn't that bad for such a turn and then a short blast down to the Spiral turns with the first turn being blind over a crest. Once they get through the Spiral, it will be back up to speed going uphill back to around the roller coaster.

I love VIR, it's a brilliantly designed track and it's fun to drive and rewarding to get all the sequences of turns right. The staff there are professional and the place is clean and well run.

[vogelmann4]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am excited as I live about an hour away. I will be there. I am not sure about why they are running Grand vs. Full Course, but it will still be good. I will miss the high speed run down the backstretch into the Roller Coaster section you get with Full Course. From a spectators perspective, you might actually see more with Grand Course?

Richard

Can you get any where near the far end of the course (Oak Tree)? Every time I have seen a VIR race it looks like everyone sits between turns 3 and 5 and everywhere else is empty.

[fieldodreams79]

I first thought they were using a different course to avoid the climbing esses, which would be a shame, but taking away the full back stretch to add a run through the auto cross infield course is a shame. Perhaps they are concerned about the speeds at the end of the back stretch???

To make the infield a little more interesting, perhaps they could throw in a dirt section and a couple of jumps.

I do like Pumpelly's comments.

Oh well, one of the great American circuits; glad to see them heading there, and there is still plenty of time for all of us to gripe and moan until race day. Maybe they'll listen.

[Rodger Davies]

please tell me that occasional guest appearances by the Q.......AEGT thing isn't the "series-partner backed works GT programme"

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I first thought they were using a different course to avoid the climbing esses, which would be a shame, but taking away the full back stretch to add a run through the auto cross infield course is a shame. Perhaps they are concerned about the speeds at the end of the back stretch???

To make the infield a little more interesting, perhaps they could throw in a dirt section and a couple of jumps.

I do like Pumpelly's comments.

Oh well, one of the great American circuits; glad to see them heading there, and there is still plenty of time for all of us to gripe and moan until race day. Maybe they'll listen.

I'm sure that terminal speed on the back stretch is what it is about and I wouldn't call the "infield" part an autocross course, that's an inaccurate characterization in my view. I can see going over that hump in the back stretch in an LMP car would have some drivers leave a starfish in the seat of their race suit.

The last bend of the Spiral is tight, but after that they should be able to carry some speed all the way back up to the top of the hill near the roller coaster. It's a nice sequence and even better than sequence of turns 3,4,5,6.

I think people are making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. I'd rather drive the Grand course than the Full course. I find it befuddling people are gritching about it when the whole section included on the Grand course is fun to drive.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

please tell me that occasional guest appearances by the Q.......AEGT thing isn't the "series-partner backed works GT programme"

Series-partner-backed works GT programme? That sounds to me like ESM getting full factory support from Michelotto because of Risi not being there for a full season.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by vogelmann4

Can you get any where near the far end of the course (Oak Tree)? Every time I have seen a VIR race it looks like everyone sits between turns 3 and 5 and everywhere else is empty.

It depends what they allow to be open on that day but I would imagine they would have everything open they usually would.

When you go through the main entrance, if you turn left at the following stop sign, that road takes you around to the South Track pit and paddock area and people spectate there along the back stretch.

If you turn right at that stop sign, that road takes you over the bridge and immediately to the left is the Patriot course pit and paddock and there is spectating there. And then you can also walk up to the Rollercoaster and spectate on the hill up there. There is also spectating at the downhill section behind the false grid.

I think the reason why you see so many people at Turns 3-5 is because that's next to the main paddock, the food, some shade and restrooms.

[WolfsburgRS]

Originally Posted by vogelmann4

Can you get any where near the far end of the course (Oak Tree)? Every time I have seen a VIR race it looks like everyone sits between turns 3 and 5 and everywhere else is empty.

You can get pretty close, but there is not a lot of room (the access road to the back straight pits runs right next to the track), and there are a few little grandstands on the other side of that road. Some of the sight lines are a little odd in spots just before the front stretch, but that's because the elevation which is a huge part of the track.

I'd compare it to Watkins, Lime Rock and similar old-school road courses. There are certain sides and parts where there is little to no spectator access however, but it's not a huge deal IMO.

It'll be awesome to see these cars on that track...and I would imagine the 'less-preferential' layout choice has to do with speeds down the back stretch and the climbing hill / crest at the end.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'm sure that terminal speed on the back stretch is what it is about and I wouldn't call the "infield" part an autocross course, that's an inaccurate characterization in my view. I can see going over that hump in the back stretch in an LMP car would have some drivers leave a starfish in the seat of their race suit.

The last bend of the Spiral is tight, but after that they should be able to carry some speed all the way back up to the top of the hill near the roller coaster. It's a nice sequence and even better than sequence of turns 3,4,5,6.

I think people are making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. I'd rather drive the Grand course than the Full course. I find it befuddling people are gritching about it when the whole section included on the Grand course is fun to drive.

Sorry but between your opinion and Spencer Pumpelly's I've gotta go with Pumpelly's. What car have you driven VIR in? Maybe it is a fun section in a Miata or a regular streetcar, but just from the videos I've seen of it it looks like it'll be pretty boring and start-stop in a proper race car.

And if speed is the issue, there's always the turn 12 chicane in the middle of the backstretch...

[Purist]

I can see two possible issues that they're trying to address with this layout. One would be the proximity of that spectator area on the hillside by the "Roller Coaster". The other is simply that an LMP going off the end at full-tilt might go for a high-fly when it gets to the drop-off in the hillside after the end of the back stretch.

I don't think the crest in the middle of the back stretch is that big a deal. It's still some distance from the braking zone, and it is certainly no worse than either of the crests in the back stretch at Road Atlanta. The terminal velocity at the end of the full back stretch at VIR should be nothing extraordinary either, at least not when compared to the top speeds you see at Road Atlanta or Road America.

MS, I can appreciate that the infield is fun to drive, and that's fine. However, I don't think it offers much of any racing potential with the big cars. The esse sections will be single-file. The two short "straights" are hardly long enough to squeeze by one or two GT cars in an LMP, much less long enough to make an intra-class pass for position.

I just don't see the infield providing anything that the original, 3.27-mile course is really lacking. Also, the Grand course takes up distance and lap time. So, with it not adding much of anything to the racing, it will actually detract from the racing. What I mean is, if you gain no overtaking opportunities in the lap, but you run significantly fewer laps (longer lap in terms of time and distance), you've significantly decreased the overtaking potential for the entire race.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Sorry but between your opinion and Spencer Pumpelly's I've gotta go with Pumpelly's. What car have you driven VIR in? Maybe it is a fun section in a Miata or a regular streetcar, but just from the videos I've seen of it it looks like it'll be pretty boring and start-stop in a proper race car.

And if speed is the issue, there's always the turn 12 chicane in the middle of the backstretch...

Well that's fine, we all have our different opinions.

To me boring would be using the chicane on the back straight, rather than the infield.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

MS, I can appreciate that the infield is fun to drive, and that's fine. However, I don't think it offers much of any racing potential with the big cars. The esse sections will be single-file. The two short "straights" are hardly long enough to squeeze by one or two GT cars in an LMP, much less long enough to make an intra-class pass for position.

I just don't see the infield providing anything that the original, 3.27-mile course is really lacking. Also, the Grand course takes up distance and lap time. So, with it not adding much of anything to the racing, it will actually detract from the racing. What I mean is, if you gain no overtaking opportunities in the lap, but you run significantly fewer laps (longer lap in terms of time and distance), you've significantly decreased the overtaking potential for the entire race.

Have you ever driven it in person?

[Fogelhund]

It is the track format that both the ALMS and VIR wanted to run. I suspect this may have something to do with safety concerns, with the speed cars might have managed to get to on the Full Course. Heck, it's an interesting new scenic track, real road course... I'll still call it a win.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

To me boring would be using the chicane on the back straight, rather than the infield.

If the issue is speed on the backstretch, then the full course is much better than a chicane or whatever course the motorcycles use.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

....and I wouldn't call the "infield" part an autocross course, that's an inaccurate characterization in my view.

You are right and having only seeing it on the track map and from the air, it looks "autocross like" to me compared to a fast straightaway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOMUyhVjYU

Pretty good ups and downs but I'd still prefer to see them on the full course. However, I can be pleased to watch just about ANYTHING on ANY course at VIR.

[Purist]

No, MS, i haven't had the privilege of driving VIR. Then again, as informed as you are, you must be familiar with the concept that some stretches of tarmac are excellent for testing, or just for pure driving pleasure, but make for awful racing (unless you're talking about one-at-a-time events).

Given the tightness of the infield, I just don't see it providing good opportunities for racing action with the ALMS cars. The timing is too tight; the straights in that section are too short compared with those on the rest of the lap. The gearing needed for the rest of the lap isn't going to suit the infield section. I could go on, and I don't need to have driven the lap myself to discern these very critical, basic characteristics of a section of track.

Here's a different onboard video, with commentary and telemetry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BbyXWmISXY

My conclusion is, in short, that the infield doesn't really fit in with the rest of the lap, when you're running the Full Circuit apart from that one section. That doesn't mean that the infield is inherently bad, and those sections work fine when running either the North Circuit or the South Circuit. I just wouldn't choose to run either "Grand" circuit layout, nor would I choose to run the ALMS on either of the shorter circuits.

[Articus]

I think it all went south at the begginning of the hairpin that they added instead of simply completing the back straight and going down to the final corners.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

No, MS, i haven't had the privilege of driving VIR. Then again, as informed as you are, you must be familiar with the concept that some stretches of tarmac are excellent for testing, or just for pure driving pleasure, but make for awful racing (unless you're talking about one-at-a-time events).

Given the tightness of the infield, I just don't see it providing good opportunities for racing action with the ALMS cars. The timing is too tight; the straights in that section are too short compared with those on the rest of the lap. The gearing needed for the rest of the lap isn't going to suit the infield section. I could go on, and I don't need to have driven the lap myself to discern these very critical, basic characteristics of a section of track.

Here's a different onboard video, with commentary and telemetry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BbyXWmISXY

My conclusion is, in short, that the infield doesn't really fit in with the rest of the lap, when you're running the Full Circuit apart from that one section. That doesn't mean that the infield is inherently bad, and those sections work fine when running either the North Circuit or the South Circuit. I just wouldn't choose to run either "Grand" circuit layout, nor would I choose to run the ALMS on either of the shorter circuits.

This stretch of track is no worse than any other part of the track and is better IMO than the turn 3-6 sequence. The infield section also isn't any more "tight" than other parts of the track and the track itself isn't anymore narrow than other parts. There is just as much opportunity to pass thru here as other sections of the track and it's just as technical with some variety in lines to use.

Actually I did not like the infield section at first but came to love it over time.

And also this section of track isn't any worse than any other place the ALMS goes.

I think people have basically taken the Pumpelly comments and run with it on some negative groove without seeing it for themselves in person. To me it's pole vaulting over mouse turds, when this is a major coup for the ALMS, going to a classic track, a beautiful facility and a Sept 15 date which will probably make for perfect weather.

[AGD]

We'll see about the layout, but it's certainly good news that there is another race in between Baltimore and Petit. There was almost a two month break in between those races. There's still more than a month break between VIR and Petit, but I guess that is better than the alternative. Granted, Baltimore is probably "To be deleted" so I should probably be talking about the break between Road America and Petit. Well, you get the idea.

[Jonerz]

I'd like to add that with five classes, a lot of overtaking will happen anyways. I am not too worried about the event.

Chris

[joeb]

Is the ALMS.com story correct that says

track’s impressive 4.1-mile, 31-turn Grand Course.

are there really 31 turns???

[Purist]

The Full Course, which is the original layout from 1957, is 3.27 miles with 17 corners.

The Grand Course they're planning to use cuts off the end of the back stretch, and uses most of the Patriot Course through the infield. This longer layout is 4.1 miles with 31 corners.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Confirms the clash with the WEC round in Brazil too. Time zones/maths are not my strong point but I suppose these could directly clash in terms of race time.

SRSLY, who cares?