Autocourse Top Ten - Can it Really be True?

[downforce]

Originally posted by AMoffat
Dear KC,


Change Little Kenny in the 500's for McCoy, poor team, poor tyres, great effort.

YUS!!!!YUS!!!!YUS!!!
Kill KrJr, he aint worth the blood that runs in his veins!!!

[neutral]

You have to remember that he's had heavy backing.

Hmmm, I wonder why that is? Perhaps his charm/charisma has led to teams hurling millions of dollars at him while at the same time building entire teams around him? Perhaps Ferarri, a team heavy on tradition, a team once compelled to the notion that no driver is bigger than the car, now enjoys having their team dominated by a foreigner, even allowing this foreigner to use the sacred Ferarri logo to endorse merchandise independent of Maranello outfit (A thought not even pondered previously by Ferarri)? Or perhaps Peter, if you allow me to get ridiculous for a second, it is this foreigner who had the potential, the ability, the determination to steer the previously washed out Ferarri group to a late 70's renaissance?

Michael Schumacher's dominance in the F1 market place is due to nothing other than his ability and his
self-determination. His work ethic is of the highest level, and his position is certainly deserving. I find it hard to understand how even the most critical Schumacher fan can deny him of this.

That being so he should have got the job done sooner

Can you honestly name another driver who would have accomplished such a feat any quicker?

A driver of his class should never have had that crash at Silverstone in 99.

Is that the incident where he collided straight into the wall without braking or turning? Yes Michael was pushing and yes Michael has made mistakes before, but that was clearly not one. Alan Jones during the time explained what failed mechanically. Noting the absence of any front wheel lock up it was obvious to him that there was some sort of brake failure. James Allen also finds such a suggestion incredulous

From a mechanical point of view the silverstone incident is quite easy to explain. However, for an ignorant reporter, the story of Michael making a mistake is much easier and much more appealing.
-James Allen on his views of silverstone

That is a seroius flaw in the make up of what people like to believe is a true champion.

If Silverstone was the worst thing Michael went through, then his career up to now certainly looks strong. Fact is Peter, that the majority of people, both fans and cynics alike, rate Schumacher not only as a true champion, but also as one of the greats of the sport. However, for some people their prejudices are far too strong. Their views are fixed and their logic is clouded. To these people Michael will never be a "true champion".

I don't believe MS tried any harder with his previous Ferraris than Mazzacane, PDLR or Gene on their particular mounts

On this point it is difficult to argue. Not so because I believe in the statement, but I have insufficient evidence to argue against the case that those listed are not "hard workers". But this certainly begs the question of how you can be so sure that those named are indeed "hard workers". I mean, we weren't exactly bombarded with race footage from the Minardi's this year. On the other hand, we saw quite a bit from the top drivers. From this we witnessed a couple of lacklustre races from Mika and Rubens while Michael was "trying" 100% in all races. The case for Michael is easy, but how did you come to the conclustion that Gene and Mazzacane are his equal in this regard? Lap times?, final positions?, qualifying? etc. The argument is inconclusive at best. Evidence is minimal, if not lacking all together, but then again Pete, since when has evidence been a priority for some people?

[chow wei hsien]

Bravo ...very very well said...

i would like to add more on the 'hard worker' stuff about MS. u r certainly spot on regarding the trying 100% all the time.


prove about the trying 100% the whole 2000 season, .........

just look at Barcelona,Spain... Michael had a slow tyre puncture, when Rubens and his brother caught up with his ill handling Ferrari, just look at the way MS battled with his brother to protect his position. Before that, look at the way MS does his famous chop infront of DC to cover the racing line, the chop that was done at the very last minute(on the straight), very near to breaking the rules...yet still legal. That is certainly trying 100% even there is no chance of a win or a podium finish.


then check out Hungary, MS has that tyre wear problem again, yet he drove all out throughout the race to keep DC behind him all the time, while DC has the definitely much faster car, look at the way MS slice thru traffic in that race before pitstops. No chance of a win again in that race, that is a 100% driving from MS again.

same thing can be said in France 2000, the Ferrari is hopelessly having tyre wear problem, yet again look at the way MS defend the lead from DC...

same story again in Spa.

now check out Nurgburgring, look at MS in the semi-wet condition, he pulled so quickly away from Mika. and when it was fully wet, look at how many times MS's car went out of shape.



well, Neutral, MS is alway on it, perhaps, the only time this year MS is not fully on it is in Silverstone,
that was a VERY VERY VERY messy first lap by MS, very unlike MS, losing positions on first couple of laps rather than making positions.
maybe the 1999 accident is still in his mind, all his attempts of overtaking in the first couple of laps are messy and looked half heartedly done, thus resulting in the loss of positions. But, 3rd is still great considering the fact that her was stuck behind the mobile chicane for so long.

MS's driving talent and his "100% on it" all the time really made me respect and love him. MS and Aryton Senna had the same level of dedication to racing, same hard driving 100% all the time aggressive styles.

[Peter Mallett]

Neutral,

We've had this discussion before so it only remains for me to re-state the obvious. The guy is very good but he will never be a great because he fails to consider all the options. Being "on it" all the time is not the same as being very good.

Alain Prost, Niki Lauda and Jim Clarke to name a few were/are "greats" in the truest sense of the word. Schumacher will never be. Also James Allen needs to sell his book. We've discussed that before. Also I never doubted that the car was in some way failing him at Silverstoene. My only question was that he got red mist and assisted himself into the wall. He had the entire race to overtake his team mate. It made no sense for a "great" driver to push that hard at the start.

But you can blindly believe what you like I only suggested that THIS YEAR he deserved his championship but with his ability he should have done it sooner.

[EERO]

neutral, to add to Mr. Mallet's comments about TGF's crash at Silverstone, I agree with him heartily.
The announcement that the race had been red flagged had been made, watching the tape, you can see several cars, especially Damon Hill's Jordan, visibly slow. I can only assume that the marshalls were showing red flags and announcements were coming over the radios telling drivers that the start had been nulified. Schumacher dove inside of Irvine at a point that he should have been backing-off as the remainder of the field was. If he had, despite the brake failure, I suspect that his injuries would have been minimized.

Of his skill at the wheel, there can be no doubt, but on too many occaissions, he has been blinded by his own anger and pulled really stupid stunts. "Great" Drivers remain dispassionate.

[neutral]

it only remains for me to re-state the obvious. The guy is very good but he will never be a great because he fails to consider all the options.

Obvious??? To who?? I have read countless opinions on Michael and never have I once heard any prominent figure in F1 or journalist deny Michaels position among the greats of F1. Yes, they sometimes critisized his racing ethics and personality but never have I read the words "he wil never be great".

Alain Prost, Niki Lauda and Jim Clarke to name a few were/are "greats" in the truest sense of the word.

These very greats-Niki Lauda and Alain Prost, as well as people such as Martin Brundle, Patrick Head, Gehard Berger, Frank Williams, Jon Barnard, Pat Symonds, James Allen, Murray Walker have all gone on record as saying that Michael is one of the greats of the sport. Alain Prost recently stated that Michael was better than him at making a car go fast, and Murray Walker predicted in his latest book that Michael may become the "best ever" when he completes his carrer. Now Peter, if it is so "obvious" that he will not be a great, then why dont we ever hear this from the paddock or journalists alike.

Peter, I pose one last question- Do you honestly believe that in 10 years time when Michael has retired and has done so with more wins then any other grand prix driver and multple world champioships, that people would regard him as something short of great?

[Gt_R]

Neutral, i love u!!!

About the Silverstone crash, Peter/Erro, u are aware that the red flag comes just a few seconds before the accident. And please note that marshal post were at different intervals of the circuit, and that at the point of the flag being shown, Michael had already passed the previous marshal post and the next if further down into the corner. Not only did Michael not slow down, neither did Irvine, and the 2 lead Mclarens. The front runners were not yet aware of the red flag when they are at the corner. ALSO, despite all efficiency, drivers are not immediately notified of red flags over the radio. Once red flag is shown, control tower sends a message to all teams who then translate it to the drivers. ALL THIS takes time, more than that few seconds. AND Michael has no idea that there is THAT problem with the car. Not even the team engineers have an idea to what happened until close examination, and the failure came at a sudden, when he applied the brakes...

Furthermore, overtaking is not an easy task, and OBVIOUSLY, Michael is totally focused on the overtaking move he is trying to pull on Irvine, like every driver would. For god's sake, they are racing! He would be more focused on the car in front of him and predict Irvine's every move. In such circumstances, if u are in his shoe, would you be much aware of anything happening at the SIDE of the track?? If some back markers can claim they fail to see blue flags for a couple of times during races, what do you expect??

And any thoughts that Michael not being one of the greats of all time are just failures to see facts and reality by some. His achievement speaks for himself. His performance is of world class. His skills and talents were praised by not just millions of people, but also those "who knows". His devotion to the sports is obvious.

If you are wondering whether he drives 100%, yes he does. Look at the way he pushes his car to the absolute limit like in Japan, Brazil, Nurburgring this year (tail twitching and all). Look at the way he drives despite his cars having problems like in France, Brazil, Spa. He fights for his position. Look at the way he goes to the pits in perfection, being absolutely on the limit at the slowing down zones. Look at his in laps and outlaps. What is more amazing is his ability to think even when racing 100%. The way he positions the back markers, the way he discusses about the team strategy, the way he take cares of his car while racing (like cooling of tyres with water,etc). Who else in this current field can match him for that??? None...

Damon Hill will not be one of the greatest, Jacques Villenueve would not be one of the greatest, Mika Hakkinen would not be one of the greatest. They would only be great. But Michael Schumacher would be ONE OF THE GREATEST, along with Gilles, Prost, and all. A true champ.

Try putting somebody else in a Ferrari in 1996, and i can tell you, Ferrari would not be what it is today. Surely, you wouldnt really believe Gene could really do what Michael did at Ferrari do you???

[neutral]

ALSO, despite all efficiency, drivers are not immediately notified of red flags over the radio. Once red flag is shown, control tower sends a message to all teams who then translate it to the drivers. ALL THIS takes time, more than that few seconds. AND Michael has no idea that there is THAT problem with the car. Not even the team engineers have an idea to what happened until close examination, and the failure came at a sudden, when he applied the brakes...

EXACTLY!!!

[Peter Mallett]

This thread was about the top ten. Somehow you lot have turned it into a "I love/don't love TGF" post.

Well If you read Autocourse you will see that his ethics have not been questioned but his overall greatness has. To paraphrase "it took four years longer than it should to win his first Ferrari championship". AND THESE ARE AMONG THE WORLD'S MOST RESPECTED JOURNALISTS. I don't have to agree with them because I make my own mind up. However I DO agree to an extent.

Now. The Silverstone accident was totally stupid. Irrespective of overtaking under red flags (for which he should have been punished anyway) he needn't have tried to overtake a team mate who was under orders to move ovwer anyway. THAT CAN NEVER BE CONSIDERED THE ACTION OF A TRUE GREAT.

As to James Allen being an authority or even a well respected journalist. Sorry, he's good but has a long way to go to beat Roebuck, Constandurous, Henry or even Murray Walker!!! (who likes TGF but still questions his overall greatness).

And Neutral. Please stop using everybody else's words for your posts. It gets somewhat tedious.

BTW. people may not be aware but as soon as the race at Silverstone was red flagged red lights were switched on at every major corner which includes Stowe. Thats why all the other drivers were slowing at that point. They didn't wait for flags or the radio, they saw the lights. And then people try to suggest that the so called very greatest driver in the world was too focussed to know what was going on around him? Please.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

[chow wei hsien]

peter is a rubbish guy man...

he hates TGF and is jealous of him, and thus,... all his negative commets on MS

i love MS, neutral love TGF, GT-R love MS. .... u don't

any problem with that??

your continuous negative comments and attempt to influence others about MS not being great is not going to stop MS considered as one of the GREATS when he retires, no need to say more, he is already a GREAT now

but i have no problem with Peter's attempt,... everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no matter how rubbish and untrue their opinions are.

good try and keep on trying

[Gt_R]

Quote: "it took four years longer than it should to win his first Ferrari championship". ...I DO agree to an extent.

Which means he is expected to win the championship in 1996, his first year?? please understand that Ferrari were at a all time low in 1995. What seperates the team from the championship is not a driver alone, but the team structure, as well as the quality of the car (which is fast but unreliable). Michael Schumacher came in 96, helped in the restructuring of the team together with Todt & Luca. Remeber that Brawn and Bryne came in 97. Michael won 3 races in 1996, more than what Ferrari's previous drivers (the great Berger and Alesi) did in total for the past number of years. In 1999, he broke his leg and sat out of numerous races. Those very journalists were ready to accept that if Michael had raced all the 16 races, he would probably have been the 99 WDC. In 98, he was right up there fighting for the championship in the last race in a car very clearly inferior to the excellent '98 Mclaren. In 97, he too was there for the championship at the last race in an inferior car to the excellent '97 Renault powered Williams. (remember that if Schumacher's race tactics were to be questioned in THAT race, so does Mclaren's and William's ethnics, for they had an agreement to rig the race!) I doubt Senna himself could deliver the WDC in 96 to the Italian outfit if he was the driver in 96! Even Prost gave up at the attempt. But Schumacher held on and won it, and what makes him more worthy that he is not there to drive alone, but to be part of the redeveloping process. If he is not one of the greatest, I'm sorry, but it would make Jacques and D Hill look liek &*#^%# (no offence meant..refer to IF!)

Quote: AND THESE ARE AMONG THE WORLD'S MOST RESPECTED JOURNALISTS.

i stress your use of "these are among". It means that NOT all of the world's most respected journalists doubt Schumacher's greatness, and there are an equal, if not greater number of the WORLDS MOST RESPECTED JOURNALIST who believes in his greatness and achievement than not.

Quote: "Now. The Silverstone accident was totally stupid. Irrespective of overtaking under red flags (for which he should have been punished anyway) he needn't have tried to overtake a team mate who was under orders to move ovwer anyway. THAT CAN NEVER BE CONSIDERED THE ACTION OF A TRUE GREAT.

After the race at Silverstone, Irvine had confirmed in an interview that at the point of time, he did not move over and let Schumacher through because 1) HE IS NOT ORDERED TO BY THE TEAM 2) HE IS ALLOWED TO RACE FOR POSITIONS. THERE ARE STRICTLY NO TEAM ORDERS, and since there isnt, Michael had to overtake his teammate because he does not want to lost time to his greatest rival who is leading the race.

And even if there are red lights at intervals, please note that at the braking point to the next red light, there is a huge distance....Even if he had not focused on the overtaking move, and that he had saw the red lights (as you insist), he was already at the corner. What he would do is to simply brake for the corner, and the same failure WOULD occur and the end result would not be much different.

Remember the failure occured when he applied the brakes...

[Peter Mallett]

So anyway. Now that we've re-hashed all that boring TGF is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which if you've never witnessed Prost, GV or others then I guess he is. And as I have never tried to get people to change their minds just be a bit more rational maybe I could just ask some of you if you think Trulli was better than Frentzen etc. Which was partly the reason for the post in the first place.

[Gt_R]

"So anyway. Now that we've re-hashed all that boring TGF is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which if you've never witnessed Prost, GV or others then I guess he is."

Peter dear....i think i have been extremely rational in this discussion and before i am misunderstood, my point of view, and i think should be the point of view of neutral and chow, is that:

Michael Schumacher is ONE OF THE greatest F1 drivers ever, together with GV, Prost, Senna and other greatest...

never would i conclude that Schumacher is the greatest of all bar sliced bread, because that is something you cannot compare from different era. Thank you

And back to the point, yes, i think Trulli was far better than HHF this season. His race and qualifying speeds were excellent, and in fact, i do think that he is worthy of a Ferrari drive. He has the skills, determination, raw speed, and many qualities, though not exactly a exact copy of Hakky and Schuey. Is HHF having an off year, or is Trulli really that much better than HHF, we shall see next year, but Trulli is truly impressive this year...!!

Hope on this comparison, we could see eye to eye?

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[neutral]

"it took four years longer than it should to win his first Ferrari championship". However I DO agree to an extent.

If you suggest that Michael should have won in 96 then I suggest you get your head examined Pete.

[Peter Mallett]

So the greatest driver in the world (I assume you all mean "ever".) couldn't make a Ferrari win the championship without Ross Brawn etc. Hmmm. Strange that don't you think?

Anyway I've got bored with this so I'll just leave you all to look at Mickey-the-showe through your rose coloured glasses.

Byeee.

[EERO]

Mallett, I do enjoy you so.

[Dino IV]

Gt_R, neutral, chowno replwei hsien,

I don’t want to waste a lot of time on TGF’s accident. I think Peter’s initial comment of ‘red mist’ was covering the situation well. His car had a failure alright, but TGF was pretty far from cool as well, don’t you think?

No, I was wondering about y’all being that upset that someone could state that he got that WDC fairly late. He did get it fairly late, didn’t he? Or do you reckon achieving it in the fifth season to be really that great?

And beside that I saw one of you state TGF restructured the team together with Luca and Todt. C'mon, now that must be the biggest joke of them all